Bens bosch conversion dont use the wrong key!

[Ben Jay]

is it timed up correctly?

I think so. The bolts all lined up when I turned it a couple of times

[Dan!]

Check the pins all line up again now after youv'e cranked it over a few times, as the belt might have been a bit slack and jumped a tooth with the power of the starter motor turning it over!

Also, wind the idle up a bit, because it might be a bit low which means it hasnt got enough fuel to start! If you get it running and the idle's at 1300rpm or something too high, then you can just wind it back down. If its set to low though it just wont start at all!

Also, keep pumping the hand primer grenade thing while you are cranking it over because you would be surprised how much air gets into the system when you fit a new pump.

Good luck!

[Ruan]

When it's trying to run, is it jumping all over the place, has a wierd noise and blowing white smoke?

If so, that's the timing a tooth out... There's a video somewhere of an XUD9 running with a tooth out, it's a very weird noise, but very distinctive if you know what you're listening for.

[Ben Jay]

Right checked all the timing and the bolts all line up perfectly. If it was 1 tooth would it not line up?

[mark_airey]

Right checked all the timing and the bolts all line up perfectly. If it was 1 tooth would it not line up?

Not at all no...........

[Ben Jay]

Is it possible for the pump to be 180 out?

[Dan!]

Id disagree with Mark (dangerous, I know....) about the holes lining up if it was 1 tooth out. Dave will vouch for me in saying that even when they are 1 tooth out it can be possible to get the holes to 'nearly' line up, and you can get a bolt in a couple of turns. Make sure the bolt you are using to check the locking holes screws in a good 6/7 turns!

And I cant see how you could get the pump 180 out. It has 2 locking holes, one at 12 o clock and one at 4 o clock. Its worth checking though that you havent put a bolt through the 12 o clock hole in the pulley and screwed it into the 4 o clock hole on the pump bracket? Which would make it ~ 120° out.......

[darrenjlobb]

If you can get bolts in with it a tooth out when your cross threading the bolts in / bolts are going in at an angle, they will not go in with a tooth out if you have the belt tensioned correctly.

[Ben Jay]

Id disagree with Mark (dangerous, I know....) about the holes lining up if it was 1 tooth out. Dave will vouch for me in saying that even when they are 1 tooth out it can be possible to get the holes to 'nearly' line up, and you can get a bolt in a couple of turns. Make sure the bolt you are using to check the locking holes screws in a good 6/7 turns!

And I cant see how you could get the pump 180 out. It has 2 locking holes, one at 12 o clock and one at 4 o clock. Its worth checking though that you havent put a bolt through the 12 o clock hole in the pulley and screwed it into the 4 o clock hole on the pump bracket? Which would make it ~ 120° out.......

What I mean is the pump is 360 out meaning instead of compression strok it would be exhaust

[Matt]

Try it out and see :|

[Dan!]

If you can get bolts in with it a tooth out when your cross threading the bolts in / bolts are going in at an angle, they will not go in with a tooth out if you have the belt tensioned correctly.

Exactly what I mean, they will go in a turn or 2 but wont thread in properly. Still enough for some people to think they line up though, when really they dont. Thats why you should always screw the locking bolts in as much as you can imo

[Dave]

If you can get bolts in with it a tooth out when your cross threading the bolts in / bolts are going in at an angle, they will not go in with a tooth out if you have the belt tensioned correctly.

Exactly what I mean, they will go in a turn or 2 but wont thread in properly. Still enough for some people to think they line up though, when really they dont. Thats why you should always screw the locking bolts in as much as you can imo

I spend a friggin week dismantling pumps only to realise it was just a tooth out... but the bolt still went in a few turns!!! :nope:

Id disagree with Mark (dangerous, I know....) about the holes lining up if it was 1 tooth out. Dave will vouch for me in saying that even when they are 1 tooth out it can be possible to get the holes to 'nearly' line up, and you can get a bolt in a couple of turns. Make sure the bolt you are using to check the locking holes screws in a good 6/7 turns!

And I cant see how you could get the pump 180 out. It has 2 locking holes, one at 12 o clock and one at 4 o clock. Its worth checking though that you havent put a bolt through the 12 o clock hole in the pulley and screwed it into the 4 o clock hole on the pump bracket? Which would make it ~ 120° out.......

What I mean is the pump is 360 out meaning instead of compression strok it would be exhaust

But your cam will change the compression stroke to exhaust stroke if its timed up correctly

[mark_airey]

Id disagree with Mark (dangerous, I know....) about the holes lining up if it was 1 tooth out. Dave will vouch for me in saying that even when they are 1 tooth out it can be possible to get the holes to 'nearly' line up, and you can get a bolt in a couple of turns. Make sure the bolt you are using to check the locking holes screws in a good 6/7 turns!

And I cant see how you could get the pump 180 out. It has 2 locking holes, one at 12 o clock and one at 4 o clock. Its worth checking though that you havent put a bolt through the 12 o clock hole in the pulley and screwed it into the 4 o clock hole on the pump bracket? Which would make it ~ 120° out.......

but cross threading the bolts in 2 turns is not getting them in is it, so as I said, if you can lock the timing then it's not a tooth out, as Darren also said

What I mean is the pump is 360 out meaning instead of compression strok it would be exhaust

No, if you can can lock everything off it will work fine.

[Dave]

Lol yeh its just laziness really, which ended up costing several days of diagnosis. If your bolts go in properly, you cant get it wrong

[ginge191]

Benj, did you get this sorted mate??

[Ben Jay]

Benj, did you get this sorted mate??

no.
i got it towed to a garage to see if they could do it and they had no joy at all... i have no time to change it back to the lucus so its one huge f*ck up to be honest.
ill call them tomorrow to double check if it is a tooth out but they said they couldnt get it running. if not then they will have to change the pump back to the lucus and i have a worthless bosch pump! and im out of pocket lots of money!

[ginge191]

Benj, did you get this sorted mate??

no.
i got it towed to a garage to see if they could do it and they had no joy at all... i have no time to change it back to the lucus so its one huge f*ck up to be honest.
ill call them tomorrow to double check if it is a tooth out but they said they couldnt get it running. if not then they will have to change the pump back to the lucus and i have a worthless bosch pump! and im out of pocket lots of money!

Seems really strange this..

I'd suggest getting it to KrisB, he maybe your closest/easiest bet.
He has a car, you could suggest paying labour+fuel to come and check it out??

[Ben Jay]

Seems really strange this..

I'd suggest getting it to KrisB, he maybe your closest/easiest bet.
He has a car, you could suggest paying labour+fuel to come and check it out??

i spoke to him but he cant get here until next week and i need the car! im so annoyed at myself for this!

[Dave]

Ok, seriously I bet you have missed something here... so here are a few things to check, looking through your thread you havent given much info on what you've done... and what actually happens when you try and fire... does it smoke, what colour, do you have to have foot on the floor, does it rev when it stars, does it take tons of cranking, wired it up correctly so not just cutting after 20 seconds?
so check:

Timing (with bolts all the way in - on crank, pump and cam - do this AFTER tightening belt up)
Pump bolt orientation (that the studs have been moved round from lucas location points)
Injector lines are to correct injectors (double check this from several sources- or look a page back, and from another source that image is not 100% clear, make sure you havent mixed lucas/bosch up)
Injectors not stuck open blowing compression back to pump
You actually have a hard grenade when pumping and have the correct banjo bolts in inlet/return ports and the pipes the correct way round
Check you actually have the woodruff key in place
Pump has sufficient max fuel to actually enable starting
Last but not least, your using bosch inecjtors? Shouldnt make starting an issue but you did change them, so try on lucas ones again, as you know they work.

Has the pump been played with? came off working car? Been stood for long?

Im pretty sure it will be one of these issues... and I guarantee you wont have checked them all .... or your pumps f*cked...
I hope this helps, I just highly doubt you've done enough research and diagnostic into why it dosent start.... 9/10 pump conversions go fine for people, but issues can arise.

[Ben Jay]

Right so when i go to start it takes a while to actually catch. once it does it will only last a few seconds with the throttle wide open. then it will slowly die during those 3 seconds.

I have double checked the wiring and it is the red wire on the black plug and it stayed live for over 1 min.

with the timing i will ask the garage tomorrow morning to check it but from what i saw it was correct.

i have checked the lines and they wont sit any other way then the way i have put them in. i have also had a mechanic friend come and check them and he said they were in the correct order

the woodruff key is definitely in place as that was a pain in the arse to source!

the fuel pump bolts onto the cradle using the original cradle that came with the bosch.

i will check the grenade again tomorrow when its back from the garage but when it was at mine it wouldnt go as hard as i remember.

I am using the bosch injectors but will try with the lucus ones when i can.

and according to the guy i bought the pump off it worked and the max fuel screw had been played with but i didnt think that would be a factor as i was playing with the throttle when i was trying to turn it over.

also can you just clarify what you mean by the banjo bolts and how do i check for stuck injectors?

and i am aware that 90% of conversions go right thats why i did it! but for me im mr bad luck so if it will go wrong it ususally does!

[ginge191]

You have screwed the MAX fuel IN for the correct way and actually running fuel?? sounds basic.. but.....worth a double check.

[Toby]

I've been investigating these VE pumps recently and was wondering.. Surely the camplate/plunger in the head has to be aligned correctly as well?

I'm sure Dave will be able to correct me

Edit: This is because the plunger position is synchronised with the cam, and so if it is 90* off, it will send fuel to the wrong cylinder?

[Ben Jay]

I've been investigating these VE pumps recently and was wondering.. Surely the camplate/plunger in the head has to be aligned correctly as well?

I'm sure Dave will be able to correct me

Edit: This is because the plunger position is synchronised with the cam, and so if it is 90* off, it will send fuel to the wrong cylinder?

does that mean what i suggested before? for every 1 rev of the crank the pump goes half a turn right so if thats the case and the pump is wrong does that mean the cam is trying to exhaust the fuel rather then compress it?

[Dan!]

If all the timing holes line up it should fire fine, compression/exhaust stroke asside.

Ben, I think what dave means by the banjo bolts, is have you put the right one to the right part of the pump? IIRC the pipe that goes to the left hand side of the lucas has to go to the right hand side of a bosch, and the right pipe on the lucas goes to the left on the bosch, have you done yours like that?

[Ben Jay]

im not sure. there is a green tab or plug on one line and a white tab or plug on the other. is this what you mean?

what im talking to toby on facebook about is that when it fires it shoots the fuel against the valve instead of into the cyclinder?

[Toby]

If all the timing holes line up it should fire fine, compression/exhaust stroke asside.

But the head assembly position is independent of the engines timing?

Or does the plunger system simply pressurise the fuel in the lines which is then metered by the cam lobe?

Edit: And reply to my PM

Edit Edit: Doing a bit more reading, it does seem as though the plunger/delivery nozzle system has to be synchronised with the cam shaft?

[Dave]

Swap your inlet and outlet banjo bolts round

[darrenjlobb]

Sorry not read whole thread, but is this a rebulit / untested pump?

Crank it with return line off and see if you get fuel.

One of three things is kicking off, a timing issue, a vane pump issue, or a camplate inside pump issue.

[Ben Jay]

Sorry not read whole thread, but is this a rebulit / untested pump?

Crank it with return line off and see if you get fuel.

One of three things is kicking off, a timing issue, a vane pump issue, or a camplate inside pump issue.

its a pump that was suppose to be working when it arrived at my house. the guy who im in contact with assures me it worked before it came off the car. he was breaking the car due to head gasket.


kicking off meaning is an issue?

[darrenjlobb]

Yeh sorry, being an issue lol..

Pull the return line and motor it, should piss out diesel, if hardly anything comes out the vane pumps seized, ive got a few redneck ways to unseize it without pulling the pump, but if its bad, itl have to be rebuilt...

But failing that its a timing issue, so either belt / injector lines / camplate.