GT2052S project thread number three

[306Puggy]

Okay, back to business. First, let me say, working on this thing is hard. Before I can even access anything I have to get the car into this state:



I.e., jacked up with jack stands each side, engine off mounts and tilted fully forwards.

I have turned the wastegate arm in by about a turn and a half and struggled to get it back into the bracket. The wastegate is definitely shut now, there is no play in it when I push the lever:





As you can see it is fully in the closed position.

The petrol gubbins that I sealed up with a bolt and chemical metal are still holding nicely:



I did find some oil dripping out of the compressor inlet however:



Now I have read that oil coming out of the compressor outlet is bad news, as well as out of the exhaust housing, but nothing about it coming out of the compressor inlet.

I also completely removed the intake ducting in case that was causing a restriction.

I am going somewhere tonight so will have a chance to test it but I really don't know where to go from here if it still does not make boost, I will probably just say "f*ck it" buy a cheap TD04 like everyone else and write the 800 quid or so I have spent on this off as a loss, because I can't stand the thought of going back to standard.

Hmm, thought I posted this before I went out. Looks like I didn't. Oh well. Anyway I went out tonight and there was no improvement, in fact I think it felt worse.

I got to a straight section of road and absolutely floored it in 3rd gear and hit about 4psi, amid a cloud of smoke.

It's as though all the exhaust gases are just not getting to the exhaust turbine to spin it properly. The turbo always seems to sound like it has a low "idle" so to speak.

The wastegate is definitely shut and there are no signs of exhaust gas leaks around the adapter plate at all.

Any other ideas before I start looking for a TD04?

[Chris_90]

There's got to be a restriction some were like the hole on the manifold is not lined up right, was it hard to pull the actuator on to the wastegate arm?

[Poodle]

Looks and sounds like the turbos knackered tbh. That or it's not right for the engine - coming on boost at 3.5k is fine for a petrol, but that's where the fuel starts to get cut back on a dt. You're sure there's no chronic boost leak?

[Piggy]

Sounds like chronic boost leak, weak wastegate or knackered turbo.

If its the turbo, just get a decent replacement. Another £75 is better than losing £800

[procta]

keep at it puggy, if things are going sour back off and come back tomorrow. it might something simple.
I had a few things to chase with my vvc setup, ( I have all that to come again! )

[306Puggy]

There's got to be a restriction some were like the hole on the manifold is not lined up right, was it hard to pull the actuator on to the wastegate arm?

Yup, this was one of my main concerns when I was building this turbo. The mani hole and turbo hole are slightly different sizes and different shapes:



As you can see from the picture, the turbo exhaust inlet hole is slightly oval, whereas the mani hole is completely round. I had to make the adapter plate hole a size in between the mani hole and the turbo exhaust inlet hole which in this case was 45mm.

The adapter plate lined up pretty nicely on the turbo but there was always a slight lip when lining it up to the exhaust housing and the mani;



Not being an expert on turbos I don't know if this would effect the flow or not. I personally don't think it would be an issue considering that the exhaust gases are under high pressure.



And yes it was hard to pull the actuator on to the wastegate arm, I tightened it as much as I could. The only thing I could do to rule it out completely would be to weld it shut. Or weld the arm with a blob of welding metal just enough so that it would hold it but that I could free it again.

But obviously I would need a welder to do that.

Looks and sounds like the turbos knackered tbh. That or it's not right for the engine - coming on boost at 3.5k is fine for a petrol, but that's where the fuel starts to get cut back on a dt. You're sure there's no chronic boost leak?

Sounds like chronic boost leak, weak wastegate or knackered turbo.

If its the turbo, just get a decent replacement. Another £75 is better than losing £800

I am sure it is not a boost leak because on idle the boost is way lower than the K14 if I put my hand over the compressor housing.

I am also sure from usually looking that the petrol gubbins on the compressor housing are not leaking, or course the correct way to do this would be to get it pressure tested but I do not have the equipment to do that.

Piggy, do you know where I might find a GT2052 or 56 for 75 pounds? I know I got this for 65 pounds that that is quite rare from what I know.

So what do we say guys? Try for another GT20 series turbo or just pickup a TD04 for 50 quid and slap that on?

keep at it puggy, if things are going sour back off and come back tomorrow. it might something simple.
I had a few things to chase with my vvc setup, ( I have all that to come again! )

Thanks procta. It's the sheer amount of money I have spent over the last year on every item under the sun needed to fabricate this thing that has got me down about it the most. It would be fine if I could use it again but most of it is specific to this turbo. Also I have my MOT coming up in a couple of months so that means I have to find a solution in the very near future as there are a few other things I have to sort for the MOT as well.

[Chris_90]

I'd just say sod it put a tiny bit of weld on the wastegate arm only a small amount so it can be taken off, if it boosts Ok then you no its a weak actuator, then find a known good one and replace, only down side to this is it could potentially spin the turbo way past the boost it likes and kill the turbo so I'd say if you do that be careful with your right foot why you test it.

I did see some were you tested the actuator with a foot pump? Was it Ok then, when I bought my gt20 the actuator that come on that was a vacuum operated one so it had a vacuum to hold it shut, I might be way off with that one but running out of ideas tbh.

[Poodle]

Putting your hand over the compressor housing at idle will tell you precisely f*ck all lol. That change in hole size between turbo and mani won't be helping, but it won't be making that much difference.

I didn't mean the compressor housing assembly would be leaking, i meant that the turbo as a whole - particularly the exhaust housing - just isn't suitable to run on a diesel engine. If you have a look at the difference for petrol vs diesel turbine flow figures from garrett you'll see what i mean.

Chris raises a good point, are you sure it's a boost can and not a vac can?

[martyn92]

Is the D seal there and not split? Boost pipe not split? Take it off and check. If the exhaust side of it is escaping you should see soot marks

[Mattcheese31]

well i've got my old K14 here i've just took off for a TD04, you can have that for £40 posted, it's been running around 20psi for about three years and made 134bhp . . . . .if you get desperate for MOT that is . .

[procta]

There's got to be a restriction some were like the hole on the manifold is not lined up right, was it hard to pull the actuator on to the wastegate arm?

Yup, this was one of my main concerns when I was building this turbo. The mani hole and turbo hole are slightly different sizes and different shapes:



As you can see from the picture, the turbo exhaust inlet hole is slightly oval, whereas the mani hole is completely round. I had to make the adapter plate hole a size in between the mani hole and the turbo exhaust inlet hole which in this case was 45mm.

The adapter plate lined up pretty nicely on the turbo but there was always a slight lip when lining it up to the exhaust housing and the mani;



Not being an expert on turbos I don't know if this would effect the flow or not. I personally don't think it would be an issue considering that the exhaust gases are under high pressure.



And yes it was hard to pull the actuator on to the wastegate arm, I tightened it as much as I could. The only thing I could do to rule it out completely would be to weld it shut. Or weld the arm with a blob of welding metal just enough so that it would hold it but that I could free it again.

But obviously I would need a welder to do that.

Looks and sounds like the turbos knackered tbh. That or it's not right for the engine - coming on boost at 3.5k is fine for a petrol, but that's where the fuel starts to get cut back on a dt. You're sure there's no chronic boost leak?

Sounds like chronic boost leak, weak wastegate or knackered turbo.

If its the turbo, just get a decent replacement. Another £75 is better than losing £800

I am sure it is not a boost leak because on idle the boost is way lower than the K14 if I put my hand over the compressor housing.

I am also sure from usually looking that the petrol gubbins on the compressor housing are not leaking, or course the correct way to do this would be to get it pressure tested but I do not have the equipment to do that.

Piggy, do you know where I might find a GT2052 or 56 for 75 pounds? I know I got this for 65 pounds that that is quite rare from what I know.

So what do we say guys? Try for another GT20 series turbo or just pickup a TD04 for 50 quid and slap that on?

keep at it puggy, if things are going sour back off and come back tomorrow. it might something simple.
I had a few things to chase with my vvc setup, ( I have all that to come again! )

Thanks procta. It's the sheer amount of money I have spent over the last year on every item under the sun needed to fabricate this thing that has got me down about it the most. It would be fine if I could use it again but most of it is specific to this turbo. Also I have my MOT coming up in a couple of months so that means I have to find a solution in the very near future as there are a few other things I have to sort for the MOT as well.

I know what that is like mind, spending money on parts etc that you don't even need!
luckly with the reshell, I have everything now and I am practically years a head than I was back in 2008 to 2010.
but at least the car is running with it, and you just need to iron out the problem.
never expect things to go smooth, as with in a space of two weeks, my vvc engine died on tick over, that was just after we had got the systems bled and the car looking like a car again. It wasn't fun I tell you having to strip all the car back down again!
I could have killed someone for that! ( person who sold me the engine springs to mind)

[Tom]

Please stop moaning about the money, at first it was a "poor chap" now its just "man hes really hung up on the money thing" if you were THAT worried about money you shouldnt of started.

I think its something stupid like the pipe isnt secured on the compressor housing properly and is leaking like a bitch, that pipe is a pain in the arse. Or the inlet mani isnt on properly. That said it COULD be the turbo, but tbh if its that f*cked you would of noticed before you put it on no?

[Uberderv]

Is it possible that the wastegate is open because it's lever arm is in the opposite position? Problem with the boost can thing on compressor outlet? or boost pipes not secured properly.

[306Puggy]

I'd just say sod it put a tiny bit of weld on the wastegate arm only a small amount so it can be taken off, if it boosts Ok then you no its a weak actuator, then find a known good one and replace, only down side to this is it could potentially spin the turbo way past the boost it likes and kill the turbo so I'd say if you do that be careful with your right foot why you test it.

I did see some were you tested the actuator with a foot pump? Was it Ok then, when I bought my gt20 the actuator that come on that was a vacuum operated one so it had a vacuum to hold it shut, I might be way off with that one but running out of ideas tbh.

Putting your hand over the compressor housing at idle will tell you precisely f*ck all lol. That change in hole size between turbo and mani won't be helping, but it won't be making that much difference.

I didn't mean the compressor housing assembly would be leaking, i meant that the turbo as a whole - particularly the exhaust housing - just isn't suitable to run on a diesel engine. If you have a look at the difference for petrol vs diesel turbine flow figures from garrett you'll see what i mean.

Chris raises a good point, are you sure it's a boost can and not a vac can?

Yeah the actuator was okay. The actuator is not the one that came with the turbo it is one from the scrap turbo that I bought by mistake which was just as well as the one that came with it would not fit.

When I pressurised it with the foot pump the rod started moving out at about 6psi so it is definitely a pressure actuator.

Poodle, I didn't know there were different versions of different turbo models based up on the engine type. But even if this turbo was a petrol version of a GT2052 then it would still be alright because it is smaller than a TD04 which is a petrol turbo anyway. I probably wouldn't do well trying to figure out flow figures I hate stuff like that

Is the D seal there and not split? Boost pipe not split? Take it off and check. If the exhaust side of it is escaping you should see soot marks

I have had to cut the D seal down due to expansion but mind you I have done this with the K14 and experienced no noticeable difference in boost pressure, certainly not to the tune of 10 psi!

well i've got my old K14 here i've just took off for a TD04, you can have that for £40 posted, it's been running around 20psi for about three years and made 134bhp . . . . .if you get desperate for MOT that is . .

Thanks Matt but I still have my K14 I just can't face going back to it.

Is it possible that the wastegate is open because it's lever arm is in the opposite position? Problem with the boost can thing on compressor outlet? or boost pipes not secured properly.

That's the old actuator that it came with. This is the new setup:



For all I know it might be pulling the wategate actuator towards it, there is not way to tell! It might just be tilting since it is only held by one thing.

Please stop moaning about the money, at first it was a "poor chap" now its just "man hes really hung up on the money thing" if you were THAT worried about money you shouldnt of started.

I think its something stupid like the pipe isnt secured on the compressor housing properly and is leaking like a bitch, that pipe is a pain in the arse. Or the inlet mani isnt on properly. That said it COULD be the turbo, but tbh if its that f*cked you would of noticed before you put it on no?

I am not moaning about money. I am just surprised how some people claim to be able to do this all for under 100 pounds. I am showing how much the real cost is unless you are very skilled and lucky.

I have tightened the jubilee clip all the way on the compressor housing outlet, it was slightly under tightened I will admit, but now I have tightened it there is still no difference. I also did the inlet mani up tightly as well. The pipe does seem slightly too big in diameter for the turbo outlet but that would not have an effect with how tight I have tightened up the jubilee clip.

I don't know enough about turbos to tell what state of repair they are in or not unfortunately. All I know about this one was that there was slight shaft play, that's all I could tell.

The most likely issue is the wastegate or the turbo being worn, but until I get a welder I can't rule it would for certain.

[Chris_90]

Bit of a bodge but it might hold get some chemical metal, mix a small bit of that up and but it on wastegate arm leave it long enough to set solid then try it worth a go seen as you haven't got a welder.

Or another long shot is ask on here see of any one local to you has a welder might be able to help you.

On your comment about doing it for £100 my build come to just over £100 but obviously I have the tools to hand, but we won't start that again, just say it is possible to do it if you have the tools at the ready.

[ConorTRG]

Get a cable tie around it aswell that should hold it shut.

[Piggy]

Replace the D seal. Cheap and simple to rule out.

You dont wana be cutting that down in any way

[Poodle]

Ok well sounds like you can rule out the actuator for now.

Bear in mind the small td04s don't fully spool until 3k on a dt as i understand it, and they're low spooling units for a petrol engine. Have you modified your governor lever set?

Why don't you try pressurising your boost piping in the same way you tested the wg actuator?

[Jtrigga]

How you getting on with this, any luck?

[306Puggy]

Bit of a bodge but it might hold get some chemical metal, mix a small bit of that up and but it on wastegate arm leave it long enough to set solid then try it worth a go seen as you haven't got a welder.

Or another long shot is ask on here see of any one local to you has a welder might be able to help you.

On your comment about doing it for £100 my build come to just over £100 but obviously I have the tools to hand, but we won't start that again, just say it is possible to do it if you have the tools at the ready.

Right, got out and jacked the car up, took the intercooler off and the engine off it's mounts.

Removed the inlet mani and ran the car without the inlet mani so that I could see the exhaust mani and observe for any blowing, but there wasn't any. Also checked the tightness of the exhaust mani studs and they were all as tight as I had left them. So there is no exhaust escaping from the head to the mani.

When the motor was running I observed the turbo charger and it felt like there was a nice strong blow coming from it even at idle with the boost pipe off.

I tried pushing on the wastegate arm and was able to move it a few millimetres and it made an immediate difference in the air pressure coming out of the turbo. So it seems that the flex on the wastegate actuator (as it is only held on by one stud) is allowing the wastegate to open very slightly, that is the only possibility I could think of, since I can move it up to a point with my finger or thumb and it does seem to make a big difference.

I could also experiment with removing some of the shims from the wastegate although these were added originally to make the actuator more level with the wastegate arm because at the angle it was I couldn't tighten it down without the wastegate staying slightly open. Maybe I can find a sweet spot. But first I need to chemical metal to set so that I can get everything back together again and confirm my theory

Just to check, is this the correct arrangement for the boost controller:


The pipe comes off the outlet in the compressor housing, goes to the ball bearing side of the controller and then the other pipe goes from the other side of the controller onto the wastegate actuator.

[Piggy]

If the wastegate can open at idle with your fingers, I would say thats not helping!

[306Puggy]

It's not really opening a lot, it just opens by a fraction of an amount, but it seems to make a big difference to the pressure coming out of the turbo.

I'll let you know how I get on tomorrow.

[Chris_90]

So we're have you put the chemical metal? On the waste gate arm?

[306Puggy]

Yes I have put the chemical metal on the wastegate arm but it is not a very good surface, not sure if it will hold, TBH. But logically speaking it must be the small amount of flex in the wastegate actuator bracket causing the issue, because the difference in turbo pressure even at idle was very noticeable. I am just surprised that such a small amount of movement could cause that much reduction in pressure. I also have to experiment with removing the shims from the wastegate actuator's stud.

[Chris_90]

Just be careful when you test it, cos you could spool the turbo well past its recommend psi and the turbo shit it's self, I don't want you coming back saying I've made your turbo explode be nice to see if you get boost up tho now if the chemical metal holds, I've used it on all sorts off stuff with out issue used it on a heater matrix pipe once when it pressurised that much it popped and it solved the issue so should hold the wastegate arm.

Just be careful with your right foot when testing it!

[306Puggy]

Well, no chance of blowing the turbo up I am afraid. Still not getting above about 3-4 psi. It's really head scratching now. I reached back behind the engine and could feel the chemical metal still holding the wastegate arm in place and from the position of the wastegate arm I know it is fully shut. But I am still not getting results. If the wastegate is shut then the only other thing would be a colossal boost leak, but it would have to be a big one to cause such a loss in pressure.


Is my wastegate actuator takeoff from the turbo perhaps the curlprit? It is quite a big valve compared to some, perhaps it is sending too much pressure out of the comp housing? It's the valve you can see in this picture:

[Chris_90]

Well only 2 things I can think of is either hot side is to big for the diesel to spool it or as you've said massive boost leak, why not go round every thing that holds boost spray it with wd40 or anything flammable and see if the engine revs up might show signs of a leak other than that I'm fresh out of ideas now tbh

[Seb_Ryan]

Well only 2 things I can think of is either hot side is to big for the diesel to spool it or as you've said massive boost leak, why not go round every thing that holds boost spray it with wd40 or anything flammable and see if the engine revs up might show signs of a leak other than that I'm fresh out of ideas now tbh

Yeah try this or brake cleaner.. engine WILL rev slightly on anything on inlet side obviously lol.

have you tried taking the mbc off? Your posts are too long to read after night shifts haha.

Either that or like chris said its to big to spool.. what rpm do you hit the massive 4 psi? Lol

[Piggy]

How much shaft play is there? Does it spin freely by hand?!
Brake cleaner will work a treat

---

Can you hear lots of hissing like a boost leak?

[silverzx]

Surely it's not too big to spool. Can't see it being any bigger than some of the other turbos people have ran in the past...

TD04 variants, HX variants, GT2259's, etc.