GT2052S project thread number three

[zx_volcane]

for the sake of some advice >

You may not need to bash the bulkhead at all - its not a case of bashing in x amount for x turbo

Trial fit the turbo on the manifold - with just a couple of bolts / studs nipped up tight

Put the engine back on its mount

Then you can see if you have bulkhead clearance issues - and if so, bash accordingly.



Cylinder head mating surface can be cleaned with something like thinners on a rag - or petrol or anything like that you have to hand - bit of diesel maybe? Point being you don't have to go out and spend money on a special tin of whatever.

If you have bits of old gasket stuck on, you can use a stanley knife blade to scrape it off - looks like you have a metal gasket though so prob no need.


Exhaust studs - I have always got these from underneath, with engine on its mounts. Can reach up and get arm around with spanner on top if needs be from there. and from my recollection the nut on the stud is usually something odd like an 11mm or 12mm - with a 10mm on the top. but horses for courses, whatever is required to get the gits off will suffice. If they have been off recently the weight of the exhaust pulling the stud down usually locks it in place and you an just unwind the nut.

[306Puggy]

Thanks for an informative post ZX Volcane. The trial fitting was the next step, and I have went out and got some photos. Oh and what I was referring to with the tap not going in all the way, I think that was because I had tapped the inlet mani holes instead of the exhaust mani holes.

So, YAY, I HAVE FINALLY GOT THE TURBO (mock) FITTED! I have snapped some photos. Initially all the man handling it took was crazy, I know I have scrapped the cylinder head on it's mating surface several times but I hope not too deep. Man if this thing works it will be a miracle after all this man handling.



In the end I had to saw a corner off the turbo exhaust housing plate to help me to fit it down the back. Once I got it in position I put a couple of studs through because the gubbins under where the turbo sits keep it roughly where you need it.

TO GET ENOUGH ROOM YOU NEED TO DROP THE LUMP AS FAR DOWN AS IT WILL GO. This will also have the effect of rolling it forwards allowing for maximum access to behind the engine.

Old turbo next to new turbo:



GT2052 in situ for the first time:





Measuring distance between comp housing and steering knuckle. Not looking too promising although engine is very roughly in a similar position to how it would be on it's mounts.

Mock fitted inlet mani to check if there was a problem-there wasn't:



Good opportunity to clock the comp housing as well.

Anyone know how I might avoid the heater matrix pipe melting without an exhaust elbow? I will have to drive to the garage to get my exhaust elbow welded to my plate as well, so there is no option but to drive

Next step, take everything back off, clean the mating surface and fit it for real. Just a bit weary about the clocking being off as once the gasket has compressed I should not undo the mani again because it won't seal properly, right guys?

And there is no way to clock the turbo in situ, well the comp housing maybe but not the CHRA, that looks like it would be a nightmare to do.

So once I tighten all the bolts up that's it, I am committed to making it fit in that orientation.

Gotta make sure my oil feed and oil returns line up and I am get my intake piping on once I have tested everything works.

[Piggy]

I cant wait till this is finished. Seriously.

[silverzx]

I wouldn't worry about the exhaust/inlet gasket being reused if it's fairly new / hasn't seen much heat.

[Chris_90]

Fair play for cracking on be good to see end results from it, one question I have (don't no if it's been asked or answered already) this gt20 being off the petrols does it have a larger hot side? So it will take longer to spool or are they the same as they are on the dervs?

[306Puggy]

Final update for the day:

Right, got the turbo mounted for a third and hopefully final time. The first major problem: the bottom driver's side exhaust mani stud will not allow the wastegate actuator to sit in it's bracket. It has to be one or the other. Either the mani stud has to go or the wastegate actuator has to go.



The oil return has been lined up perfectly with the return on the sump but it is still not 90 degrees directly down. It is more like 120 degrees from what I can tell, although the oil return on the standard K14 unit is also about the same orientation.

The return rubber hose is not long enough so I had to cut some length off the steel return line from my K14, I guess there is no going back now. Shit just got real

Some mild rust on the mani mating surface, shouldn't be a problem, just putting the picture up to show other people what is normal:



Also put some grooves in the comp housing outlet to help the hose stay on:



So yeah, a mixed bag really, I either have to go without a mani stud on one end (bottom mani stud) or without a wastegate, neither of which is ideal. I remember cleaning up the head last time the exhaust mani leaked and I do NOT want to have to do that again! Perhaps I could find a shorter stud and spacer to go on that side? I have not the first clue where to look for exhaust stud spacers though.

Oh and last but not least, we have oil flowing around the turbo! Tested it as the last thing, gave a good five second crank and saw oil dripping out of the return.

So tomorrow is gonna be priming the turbo and getting ready for a test fire I just hope everything is okay, fingers crossed.

[Poodle]

Hope it goes well.

For future reference; you don't need to hash the surface if there's already a bead

[Uberderv]

Could you not cut the original spacer and stud?

[306Puggy]

Hope it goes well.

For future reference; you don't need to hash the surface if there's already a bead

There is a bead on it but because of the petrol related gubbins on the side it doesn't allow the hose to go all the way onto it down the front if you see what I mean from this picture:

Could you not cut the original spacer and stud?

That idea works until you consider that I need a die to cut a new thread in the cut down spacer and therefore need to wait x amount of time for it to be delivered from eBay as I don't know where I can buy individual dies locally. I estimate I only need about 2cm clearance so it is certainly frustrating!

I can go ahead and test it with the engine running tomorrow but then assuming it is working I won't be able to proceed further if leaving the spacer off is not an option. Also leaving the wastegate actuator off is not an option now I have thought about it because the wastegate would be open all the time and therefore I would have no boost and that would be crap.

So yeah, only real option for driving is to drive around without an exhaust stud in and hope it doesn't leak until I can get one from eBay. I will start a thread on it in the XUD section and see what people think.

[ConorTRG]

Have you any old studs lying about? Look for a stud the right thread and use it.

[306Puggy]

Well I have ordered a die from eBay now but now I think about it I do have a few M8x1.25 bolts lying around that I could cut to the correct length and then fit the nut on...why don't I ever think about these things before hand :banghead: Another £3.50 down the drain :angry: Time to update the costs list again!

---

Fair play for cracking on be good to see end results from it, one question I have (don't no if it's been asked or answered already) this gt20 being off the petrols does it have a larger hot side? So it will take longer to spool or are they the same as they are on the dervs?

Sorry Chris forgot to answer your question, meant to put it in an update. I don't know about the dimensions of the exhaust housing of this unit in relation to the diesel ones...I hope it is not too big otherwise that will be bad for lag. As far as I know a given model number of turbo has a given dimensions but it might not be the case, I really have no idea. I thought it was a bargain at £65 but at the time I didn't realise the petrol and diesel ones were any different regarding the extra gubbins on the petrol one.

[ConorTRG]

Just use the stud, dont bother cutting it. Btw is you run a nut up on one of the head studs and cut it down to the correct length, then use a small hacksaw blade to clean the end threads up a bit and screw the nut back off, theres usually no need to use a die on it if its a clean enough cut, use a hacksaw to cut the stud rather than a grinder if you want.

[Seb_Ryan]

Just use the stud, dont bother cutting it. Btw is you run a nut up on one of the head studs and cut it down to the correct length, then use a small hacksaw blade to clean the end threads up a bit and screw the nut back off, theres usually no need to use a die on it if its a clean enough cut, use a hacksaw to cut the stud rather than a grinder if you want.

This.. or use a file to file the end thread down so it grabs on the next good one

[Niall]

Going on from what ZX Volcane said, its always best to not smash the bulk head in. Don't forget it is quite a substantial structural part of the car so if you did ever have a bad accident, it may be that that stops you having an engine on your lap.

[Poodle]

There is a bead on it but because of the petrol related gubbins on the side it doesn't allow the hose to go all the way onto it down the front if you see what I mean from this picture:

It doesn't need much, just enough space for a clamp to go on, simply because the clamp will tighten to a smaller diameter than can come off the bead. You'll see what i mean if you play around with the stock rad fittings, you can loosen the jubilee off a couple of turns and it moves around quite easily, but i bet it still won't come off the end of the beaded pipe.

Also, as others have said, find something to replace that stud. Doesn't have to be a stud, could use a bolt if there's access, or cut the head off a suitable length bolt and use that as a stud instead.

[306Puggy]

Day three update:

Again, a mixed bag today. Got the mani stud sorted and wastegate attached. Primed the turbo for five five second bursts on the starter, all good. Then needed to get the inlet mani on and this is where things took a turn for the worst. It seems like I did accidently cut the threads in the inlet mani mounting bolt holes on at least one of them, so I had to use the left over exhaust stud to fill the gap there. A solution but still annoying. You can just see the exhaust stud nut poking out here:



Another thing is the petrol gubbins on the turbo giving me trouble getting the driver's side inlet bolt in, I am thinking about cutting the bolt down to add clearance, or even just taking a file to the head of the bolt as that is what's catching.



In other news, it looks like 14 inches is too long of a length for the oil feed hose, I have a lot of excess. I should have gone with the 12 inches as suggested or maybe 13 to be on the safe side. I did try to route it round for the other side to make use of the excess but even 14 inches isn't quite enough to do that. Although I did have the engine block outlet to the side instead of straight up, maybe that's why.



As you can also see I have had to radge up an oil return line extension because it looks as though for some reason the K14 return line isn't reaching the rubber hose like it does with the original K14 unit.

Once the inlet mani is on I need to top up the coolant because I had to undo the heater matrix pipes to fit the turbo down the back and then go for a test fire. I am nervous as hell about this, keep seeming to put it off, it's just so much effort to go to if things don't work out. I will see if I can catch a video in any case.

[Chris_90]

Good work! You looked at exhaust elbow see what that's like for lining up?

[306Puggy]

Right guys, she lives D Man was my heart pumping on those first few attempts. Running veg makes it extra exciting with all those coughs and splutters and false starts you get on it. Anyway, yes, she does live, but the turbo whistle seems really loud, I can't figure out whether it is worse for wear or just because it is open turbo. It does sound ear piercing at some points. I have taken a few videos of it running anyway.

Just click on the image thumbnail to view the video and it will take you to Photo Bucket because there isn't an option to embed video with Photo Bucket.









In other news:

Jacked the engine right up to get to the mani bolts and the f*cking intake air ducting pushed on the MC and caused fluid to leak out of the fecker a fair deal. Let it back down and the fluid stopped leaking. Gonna put up a thread for it so that I can get some advice, trying to keep this thread just for my project.




The only thing I am really weary about (apart from having no idea whether the turbo is okay or not) is the friggin' heater matrix hose being right on front of the turbo exhaust housing outlet. I put my hand there and it wasn't too hot, but I don't know how that will be after sustained driving. I am guessing very hot.

Okay guys well does anyone have any ideas what to check before I put it all back together? I have checked for oil leaks-none present. I just have to sort my inlet out and then whack the top mount back on and get an exhaust elbow sorted. I have read on these forums that the angle is 60 degrees so got my protractor out, does that mean the middle of the exhaust elbow should be 60 degrees? So for a 3 inch elbow, like 1.5 inches in?

[306Puggy]

Final update of the day. After the initial Euphoria of the starting and running has worn off, a serious problem emerges. Despite my pre-emptive bulkhead bashing, it seems that with the engine in the engine mount position the comp housing is still catching on the bulkhead:



At the moment, I cannot get the engine on the mounts at all, despite nearly getting it there. The part of the turbo that is catching is the comp housing so I could rotate it slightly which may or may not provide sufficient clearance for the unit. I am surprised that it is catching considering some people have fitted the larger GT2056 without necessitating bulkhead bashing. As it stands, I need a solution urgently as I need to get my car back on the road.

Before this having worrying discovery I decided to remove the exhaust and all of the intake ducting for the OEM K14 setup. I guess there is no going back now!



I also took another video of the turbo with the engine running, notice how little oil is being passed by the turbo Looks like it was in good condition afterall.



Tomorrow I must tackle the engine mounting urgently, any brainstorming would be greatly appreciated

[Chris_90]

I used a drill and fairly large drill bit to chase some of the beam that runs along the bulk head when I fitted a td04 to my old 306 cos I fitted it all and found it hitting bulk head after was very short on room didn't wanna take turbo off again so just kept drilling moving the drill around making the hole bigger and after an hour of swareing I finally got rid of enough metal for it to clear.

[martyn92]

Think you might need to hit the bulkhead some more, and as for the coolant hose just cable tie it upwards around the inlet manifold. Dont let it rest touching anything on the turbo side, it will just melt

[Jtrigga]

Fair play with cracking on with it, I hope that you do get it all sorted after the long effort.

[306Puggy]

Man, the last four days have been stressful. I have done nothing but work on my car, day in, day out. Today I had my first drive of it, unfortunately the results are less than encouraging

The whole car vibrates with the turbo against the bulkhead despite my bashing and drilling.

Then there's the noise which is loud not in a good way. And because there is no exhaust on the fumes are nauseating.

All this wouldn't have been too demoralising but the turbo only seems to provide about 2 psi of boost, something is wrong there. I have blocked the petrol gubbins at both points on the compressor housing.

The wastegate is closed from what I can tell, with such a lack of boost it would have to be noticeably open anyway, wouldn't it?

I noticed when the engine was idling with the intercooler off that the turbo seemed to provide a very weak blow for some reason. Way weaker than the K14 at idle, so this rules out there being some sort of boost leak at the intercooler/inlet mani.


I got my exhaust elbow sorted so now am able to give it some throttle (hence my discovery of the lack of boost) and it set me back 30 quid! I can't get any more exhaust work done if it is going to cost that much each time. It seems that the boss of the garage has changed and is now forcing the mechanics to charge full price for everything. So I do potentially need a way to sort an exhaust without welding.

These are the holes I drilled into the bulkhead, first one was in the wrong place:



This was the kit I used to make them:



This is how much the welding cost me for one thing:



Now you can see why I need an alternate method to one that involves welding.

With the turbo boost problem I am afraid of it being something like, I dunno, the turbo to adapter plate or adapter plate to mani surfaces not sealing. Or the hole in the adapter plate being off centre and thus slowing the exhaust gases down, or something else obscure and damn near impossible to fix without taking the whole thing off.

I am probably gonna have to remove the wastegate and try it with the wastegate arm wedged somehow to stop it from opening and then if it still doesn't make boost something is very, very wrong.

[306Puggy]

Right, pulled off the Manual Boost Controller and it seems to have got a lot more bottom end, but it still won't boost past 5 psi. I think the boost controller might have been the wrong way round causing a boost leak, but that doesn't explain why it has more pickup with it off, since surely the boost leak would be better in that case and therefore it would be slower? Before it was completely flat now it has some punch but still only up to about 4 psi.

[Seb_Ryan]

I hope for your sake it's just a boost leak :/

[Piggy]

Ouch
Gauge is ok?
No pipes kinked?
Exhaust system blocked?

How are you controlling boost?

Boost comp connected?

No clamps lose?

[Poodle]

Much smoke off boost when you mat it?

[306Puggy]

Ouch
Gauge is ok?
No pipes kinked?
Exhaust system blocked?

How are you controlling boost?

Boost comp connected?

No clamps lose?

Hi piggy, I will have to work through that check list bit by bit as I am too tired of the whole thing for now. Maybe I will have a look tomorrow. But I can say for certain that the exhaust is fine, boost compensator is connected because in between that and the intercooler is my boost gauge take off and the clamps are all connected on the intercooler/turbo as well. I am using a manual boost controller but it seems to have only a slight effect, wound right in.

Much smoke off boost when you mat it?

Yes there is tons of smoke when I put my foot down, I am running enough fuelling on the bosch for 30 psi on the K14 unit.

I really need to go out and play, I am fearing that the waste gate is not completely shut but it is so impossible to tell with the actuator hidden down the back of the engine and now with the exhaust elbow on too. Put when it was off I gave the wastegate a push and it not move any more from a closed position. But that could have just been the actuator holding it

It's just so impossible when I have been working on it the last four days to get really stuck in so soon again. Trouble is I have to get the engine off it's mounts and the whole car jacked up to access anything. Thanks for the help.

Edit: Just been out and noticed that the silicone inlet joint has come off the turbo inlet but is not fully off so it is directed at the turbo but not blocking it. I wonder if this was the cause of the slight boost increase instead of playing with the boost controller :/ Also, can't really find any kinks in the hose from the turbo to the intercooler either. I can't even see the waste gate actuator without taking the engine off it's mounts, I think I will leave that for the weekend. I am too tired for any heavy work, plus my bedroom is a mess. Everything stops when I have to tackle a big job and it is my daily driver as well so I can't afford to have it off the road for long.

[Poodle]

Ok, plenty of fuel then... No doubt it's already been mentioned and i've missed it, but what engine is this turbo off? What rpm does it get to 5psi at? I assume you've tested all this on the road, and not just revving it while it's stood on the driveway?

[306Puggy]

The turbo is a GT2052S from a Vauxhall Z20NET engine. Yes I have road tested the unit. I would say it gets to 5 psi at about 3.5k rpm and then from there drops down again. I am thinking that maybe the wastegate is pulling the actuator towards it and therefore allowing the waste gate to open too early. This is my wastegate bracket setup:



Since that picture an additional diagonal strengthening beam has been added, but I don't know if the single bolt holds the wastegate actuator straight enough, or whether it allows it to tilt. I don't even know how much pressure is on the wastegate. These were concerns that I had when building it but I don't have the engineering knowledge to know whether it was alright or not.