The real cause of injector rattle?

[Piggy]

90 sounds way too high for general running.

The racetractor hovers around 80-85 day to day and blasting

[JTaylor2005]

Who actually says 90 is too high? Everyone knows these run cold compared to normal cars. 90c is basically every other car out there.

Yeah they commonly run at that temp but now mines at 90 the injectors are silent, its sounds smoother, the idle doesn't fluctuate as much and there is less smoke. Win win win win haha.

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Only time will tell how the MPG is affected by the new stable temperature.

[powerandtorque]

If you've just replaced the 'stat with a new Peugeot 83 degree one and the gauge is still showing 90 degrees, I'd be double checking that the gauge isn't lying. That, and that you've definitely fully bled it.

PP2000 or any half-decent diagnostic tool should show you the coolant temperature value.

All the HDi's I've owned or driven have always showed 80 degrees or a smidgen over on the gauge, which would tie up with an 83 degree 'stat.

[JTaylor2005]

My gauge was previously lying until I replaced it. I also cleaned up the mating faces of the sensor and the head which is basically the sensors earth path for the dash board gauge.

[Ruan]

Who actually says 90 is too high? Everyone knows these run cold compared to normal cars. 90c is basically every other car out there.

Yeah they commonly run at that temp but now mines at 90 the injectors are silent, its sounds smoother, the idle doesn't fluctuate as much and there is less smoke. Win win win win haha.

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Only time will tell how the MPG is affected by the new stable temperature.

90 degrees is _NOT_ every other car out there... Near modern Commonrail Diesel, lots of high performance petrols - you're going off f*cking VW gauges that say 90* when that's 100% billy bollocks.

What Bosch part number is your ECU? I'm going to guess it's 0281 001 976.

Judging by the fact by 90*C there is corrective action to reduce the temperature, i.e. the fans coming on a few degrees later. Everything in the cars is designed to make them run at 83*C.

STOP going off the wank gauge in the car, at LEAST get PP2k/Torque or another OBD tool to give you the temperature, it sounds like you've had the dash apart, so the calibration is now definitely to cock even if you think you've put the gauge back on in the right place.

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My gauge was previously lying until I replaced it. I also cleaned up the mating faces of the sensor and the head which is basically the sensors earth path for the dash board gauge.

Lying according to what?

[JTaylor2005]

Im just stating what I have found. For years people have wondered why these cars seem to run so cool. Then I go and change for a stat that fits much nicer and snugger than my old one. Then I say it runs slightly warmer and that now I have noticed a lot less injector rattle?

Whats wrong with a 5c increase and no annoying noise and less smoke haha?

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The dash has never been apart either.

[Poodle]

I say fair play for experimenting and going with common sense over common knowledge. If it causes an issue in future then you can change it back, simples lol.

[JTaylor2005]

That's the thing. I'm not expecting head gasket melting temperatures. I did an 8 mile 70mph run earlier and it sat spot on at 90. I dunno I like messing. Also it's like with maintenance engineers. If one moves to another factory that he don't know and 4 maintenance blokes all say "oh that's just how that machine is" usually he won't question it. I like to because why not

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All that I have done is the following.

My car used to sit anywhere between 75-85c on the gauge when driving. It used to move up and down quite a lot and never really sat still.

I then changed both the thermostat (cheap one from eurocarparts, never really sat dead on and the rubber seal wasn't tight against the outside of the housing) and the temperature sensor.
When I changed the temperature sensor I cleaned the two mating faces and the old corroded washer was replaced (Bearing in mind the dash gauge relies on the earth from the mating face for it to work)

Once that had been done my car then sat comfortably anywhere between about 82-85c.

Now I have replaced the loose fitting thermostat for a new perfect fitting on it sits perfectly on 90c. Round town like earlier, driving at a steady 30, 50, 60. All bang on 90c.

[JTaylor2005]

Another 25 mile blast today. Sitting dead on 89/90. No problems. Still running quiet and smooth.

[Poodle]

It'll be weeks/months before you're likely to see any issues i think, testing something like this is very much a long-term game.

Ruan, what's the corrective action, i presume there are features in the map..?

[JTaylor2005]

Tbf I don't think I am running it any hotter than you guys are. I just have a temperature gauge that works correctly and sits at a temperature that peugeot would have liked it to (90 being dead top of the gauge where it looks good to see the needle)

I need to find someone with pp2000 around the midlands so that I can give it a good look at using that.

It looks as though I had a problem with a crappy thermostat. When I cleaned up the sensor faces and replaced the temp sensor it raised the reading on the dash gauge. Then when I replaced the stat for a working nice fitting one it now reads a little higher again.

I have spoken to HDI-Tuning's pro-steve and he said there is corrective action in the map for high fuel and coolant temperature but he said that power and performance wont be knocked back until its "really hot" not sure how hot he means tbf haha.

[Piggy]

Sorry...still not convinced that peugeot designed these to run at 90 in day to day driving.

Shouldn't need full radiator circulation all the time.

[JTaylor2005]

Well I am going to go get it on a PP2000 today to see what its reading at properly in the program rather than on the gauge and then we can compare what others are running at full temp in a PP2000 setup.

[JTaylor2005]

Well had a go at running PP2000 on my old XP laptop. Couldn't for the life of us get it working which was annoying.

Got home after the 50 mile round trip and tried bleeding the system again. Engine running fully warmed up and opened the top of the stat. Noting for a very short while and then coolant. Opened the top of the heater matrix while the engine was running and got water straight away so no air in there.

Radiator is self bleeding back into the expansion tank. What am I missing then haha?? All seems alright tbf

[JTaylor2005]

Definitely no air in the system. Opened all bleed screws when the car was hot and only coolant came out. Squeezed the pipes etc expansion tank level went up and down but no bubbles.

[Toms306]

It's 22c here today, if your fans are ever going to come on it'll be now lol!

[toseland]

ragging the tits off the car yesturday and the fans didnt come on, hit what was reported to be 95 by the temperature display on the dash.. no fans!

[Toms306]

You might want to check they actually work then, I think its 92c for low speed on the HDi.

[Paul_13]

I think that's what's done my HG in, I left it running /revving it to get the fans on. Temp went up to over 90 to near 100 and no fans.

I wonder if you can change the temp they come on by mapping?

Or bunging a temp sensor in the rad and associated relays etc

[Toms306]

You could just use the AC button as a manual fan button?

[JTaylor2005]

Well my gauge today whilst moving constantly displayed around 90c on the gauge. God knows what that is in the ECU as I still haven't been able to get it on a PP2000 despite trying to install it on a windows xp laptop it just wasn't having it :/

Anyways I got back after a long drive and let it sit on the drive. Gauge rose to 95ish and no fans at all. So drove and it dropped back to 90c as the wind was passing through the radiator.

I have removed the temperature sensor plug and both my fans are working on high speed but still nothing on low from what I can tell :/ which is kinda annoying. It seems that with the ill fitting thermostat it stayed cold enough to not need the fans but with the one that fits snug and I presume is working correctly (as its a gates expensive one) now its getting hot enough to need the low speed fan :/

[Paul_13]

I have done the AC button mod, bit still if the wife is driving it.... I'd rather have a proper old school system that will work like the 205 diesel setup and a rad temp sensor

[powerandtorque]

Tbf I don't think I am running it any hotter than you guys are. I just have a temperature gauge that works correctly and sits at a temperature that peugeot would have liked it to (90 being dead top of the gauge where it looks good to see the needle)

If Peugeot had wanted to run at 90 degrees, they should have fitted a thermostat rated to that.

Lots of 80's and 90's era Peugeot/Citroen petrol models have 89 degree thermostat's for example. Equally, there's other Peugeot's out there with considerably low rated thermostats - some 505's for example have 'stats rated down into the 70's.

Being vertical on the gauge is purely an aesthetic thing, although the gauges on many newer cars are "faked" to make them appear vertical even when the temperature is several degrees either side of that.

It looks as though I had a problem with a crappy thermostat. When I cleaned up the sensor faces and replaced the temp sensor it raised the reading on the dash gauge. Then when I replaced the stat for a working nice fitting one it now reads a little higher again.

I have spoken to HDI-Tuning's pro-steve and he said there is corrective action in the map for high fuel and coolant temperature but he said that power and performance wont be knocked back until its "really hot" not sure how hot he means tbf haha.

What was the replacement sensor? I've not looked into HDi ones, but I know older sensors can have difference calibrations which would make the reading inaccurate... plus some aftermarket/pattern sensors can be a bit dubious even if they are supposedly calibrated the same.

Just guessing, but I wonder if that corrective action impacts the pre-injection phase at all? If so, that might explain why it's reduced the injector rattle, in the same way that rattling injectors shut up over 3200rpm as that's why pre-injection changes (or is stopped completely, I can't remember now)

I think that's what's done my HG in, I left it running /revving it to get the fans on. Temp went up to over 90 to near 100 and no fans.

Doubt it - that still won't be boiling a correctly pressurised cooling system remember.

I suspect it was the absolute flogging you'd been giving it before hand despite knowing the head gasket was on its last legs that finished it off... mechanical sympathy, Paul_13 style

The low-speed fans don't work on mine (I think one of the two fans is dead, so as low-speed works by running the fans in series, neither works on slow) and thus in traffic eventually the temperature will climb to high 90's before dropping to low-90's and repeating as the fan cycles. Never done it any harm, exactly as it shouldn't on a pressurised system.

Worth remembering that many cars don't even turn on the slow-speed fans until high-90's - standard 205 GTI's are like this for example with the red-banded thermoswitches (97 degree slow speed and 102 degree high-speed fan).

I have removed the temperature sensor plug and both my fans are working on high speed but still nothing on low from what I can tell :/ which is kinda annoying. It seems that with the ill fitting thermostat it stayed cold enough to not need the fans but with the one that fits snug and I presume is working correctly (as its a gates expensive one) now its getting hot enough to need the low speed fan :/

Assumption is the mother of all f**k-ups, remember that

All the thermostat does is to regulate the temperature by restricting coolant flow to the radiator below a given temperature. It thus will have no impact on the cooling fans at all, as the fans won't come on until well over the temperature that the thermostat is already open and effectively out of the equation.

The only way that they're vaguely related is that if the engine is being regulated to a temperature higher than it was, then in traffic the temperature has to raise less before it will get to the point where the fans should come on. That's it. Even with no thermostat at all and the engine running extremely cool, eventually when sat in traffic it'll heat up to the point where the fans kick in, just take longer to increase (say) 40 degrees than to increase 10 degrees from the 'stat temp.

I still maintain that something is amiss, be it the temperature gauge accuracy or something more fundamental, as on cruise you should be sitting on the thermostats opening temperature and not higher than that - the cooling effect of the air through the radiator is far more than the heat that the engine is dumping into the cooling system in that circumstance, thus the temperature will drop until the point at which the thermostat is almost closed. With an 83 degree 'stat you should really be sitting at that temperature, give or take a little for tolerances etc, and certainly that's my experience with HDi's I've owned/driven.

[toseland]

You might want to check they actually work then, I think its 92c for low speed on the HDi.

I did,   I have the fans wired into the AC button,  when they kick on the revs drop slightly if idling as they pull a packet load of current on spinup..

the temperature gauge was 3-4 degrees out imo

I bottled it and stuck them on to cool the engine on idle a little before I dropped it off.

[JTaylor2005]

Tbf I don't think I am running it any hotter than you guys are. I just have a temperature gauge that works correctly and sits at a temperature that peugeot would have liked it to (90 being dead top of the gauge where it looks good to see the needle)

If Peugeot had wanted to run at 90 degrees, they should have fitted a thermostat rated to that.

Lots of 80's and 90's era Peugeot/Citroen petrol models have 89 degree thermostat's for example.  Equally, there's other Peugeot's out there with considerably low rated thermostats - some 505's for example have 'stats rated down into the 70's.

Being vertical on the gauge is purely an aesthetic thing, although the gauges on many newer cars are "faked" to make them appear vertical even when the temperature is several degrees either side of that.

It looks as though I had a problem with a crappy thermostat. When I cleaned up the sensor faces and replaced the temp sensor it raised the reading on the dash gauge. Then when I replaced the stat for a working nice fitting one it now reads a little higher again.

I have spoken to HDI-Tuning's pro-steve and he said there is corrective action in the map for high fuel and coolant temperature but he said that power and performance wont be knocked back until its "really hot" not sure how hot he means tbf haha.

What was the replacement sensor?  I've not looked into HDi ones, but I know older sensors can have difference calibrations which would make the reading inaccurate... plus some aftermarket/pattern sensors can be a bit dubious even if they are supposedly calibrated the same.

Just guessing, but I wonder if that corrective action impacts the pre-injection phase at all?  If so, that might explain why it's reduced the injector rattle, in the same way that rattling injectors shut up over 3200rpm as that's why pre-injection changes (or is stopped completely, I can't remember now)

I think that's what's done my HG in, I left it running /revving it to get the fans on. Temp went up to over 90 to near 100 and no fans.

Doubt it - that still won't be boiling a correctly pressurised cooling system remember.

I suspect it was the absolute flogging you'd been giving it before hand despite knowing the head gasket was on its last legs that finished it off... mechanical sympathy, Paul_13 style

The low-speed fans don't work on mine (I think one of the two fans is dead, so as low-speed works by running the fans in series, neither works on slow) and thus in traffic eventually the temperature will climb to high 90's before dropping to low-90's and repeating as the fan cycles.  Never done it any harm, exactly as it shouldn't on a pressurised system.

Worth remembering that many cars don't even turn on the slow-speed fans until high-90's - standard 205 GTI's are like this for example with the red-banded thermoswitches (97 degree slow speed and 102 degree high-speed fan).

I have removed the temperature sensor plug and both my fans are working on high speed but still nothing on low from what I can tell :/ which is kinda annoying. It seems that with the ill fitting thermostat it stayed cold enough to not need the fans but with the one that fits snug and I presume is working correctly (as its a gates expensive one) now its getting hot enough to need the low speed fan :/

Assumption is the mother of all f**k-ups, remember that

All the thermostat does is to regulate the temperature by restricting coolant flow to the radiator below a given temperature.  It thus will have no impact on the cooling fans at all, as the fans won't come on until well over the temperature that the thermostat is already open and effectively out of the equation.

The only way that they're vaguely related is that if the engine is being regulated to a temperature higher than it was, then in traffic the temperature has to raise less before it will get to the point where the fans should come on.  That's it.  Even with no thermostat at all and the engine running extremely cool, eventually when sat in traffic it'll heat up to the point where the fans kick in, just take longer to increase (say) 40 degrees than to increase 10 degrees from the 'stat temp.

I still maintain that something is amiss, be it the temperature gauge accuracy or something more fundamental, as on cruise you should be sitting on the thermostats opening temperature and not higher than that - the cooling effect of the air through the radiator is far more than the heat that the engine is dumping into the cooling system in that circumstance, thus the temperature will drop until the point at which the thermostat is almost closed.  With an 83 degree 'stat you should really be sitting at that temperature, give or take a little for tolerances etc, and certainly that's my experience with HDi's I've owned/driven.

I can't see what would be amiss now though tbh really. I have an 83c rated thermostat made by gates which I heard is a good brand. The gauge according to people on here underreads compared to the ecu temp signal. Maybe having replaced the temp sensor and gotten rid of the old coroded washer between the sensor and the block could that have given a higher reading as it has less resistance than it did before??

I need to use a pp200 but litterally can't find anyone with it and I don't have a laptop it will work on. Would be nice to just literally plug it in for 5 mins to just check the temp compared to the gauge.

The coolant has been bled like 3/4 times now im 99.999% sure there is no air left in it now.

The temp sensor was a eurocarparts one. Can't remember what brand but I seem to remember it was a good brand.

[tigerstyle]

OBD reader and torque would also give you the reading? Handy thing to have

[Poodle]

I don't think eurocarparts even sell good sensors lol. I think you can pick up pp2000 already installed on a laptop for about £200 all in on ebay.

[JTaylor2005]

So having tried the torque app. When my gauge is displaying 89c my torque app says 79c haha

[Piggy]

Yup sounds about right.

[JTaylor2005]

Maximum I saw on the app was 84c and that was foot down proper loading the engine. That displayed as 92 on the gauge. All is well then