dw10 crank swap 400HP

[dr_jekyll]

Is there any good advice on injector brackets? Saw tom's rudimental attempt that worked reasonably well but was just wondering if there is any to be hold off the shelf as such

[Piggy]

Is there any good advice on injector brackets? Saw tom's rudimental attempt that worked reasonably well but was just wondering if there is any to be hold off the shelf as such

I don't think this is a "off the shelf" type build

[bashbarnard]

yeah what piggy said. you are going to need to modify things to make them fit and learn a lot of new stuff to make it work. its possible but takes time and effort.

[japie]

Will try to post some pics of injector mounting this weekend...

[dr_jekyll]

Will try to post some pics of injector mounting this weekend...

Will be intresting to see, thanks!

Didnt mean so much off the shelf as i meant is there any brackets that can be stolen from other engines. My poor wording

[japie]

Injector mounting ring for 300tdi injectors:
   
diameter 27mm 10mm high and a 17mm hole, 5mm holes trough and trough with M6 in it.
Use the ring to drill 2 holes in the injector about 2mm deep (first dry fit to find out the correct placement and keep some extra room for tightening) and tighten the ring with 2 M6x12 grub screws, now you can use the Hdi's original clamps to mount the injectors. (with use of extended studs and taller bolts)
With the use of this ring you can turn the injectors around any way you want so you can correct the spray pattern angle to match the engine.

Stock 300tdi injectors can handle up to ~200cc and have a 2 stage injection cycle with a pre injection at 200bar and the main at 300.
If you want more you can fit DSLA144P144 nozzles which have about the same spray pattern and angle but come from a Scania truck so can deliver a whole lot more. One minor thing these are 9mm diameter and originals 7.2mm so you need to drill out the head.
We use these as single shot at 320bar, grind the little pin on top of the nozzle needle, use a thrust piece from the Hdi's Bosch common rail injector (not from Siemens is different) mount it and start adjusting until you have them all 4 at the same pressure...

[Uberderv]

Could you use these if the center was machined out to 17mm?

[japie]

Wouldn't try it, if it gets loose and the injector looses it's mounting pressure the flame will burn a hole in the head... (learned from experience)

[Danny Wideboy]

THIS. THEAD. IS. EPIC.

[bashbarnard]

Thats a good idea when i mounted mine i just bolted them in to start with and they almost immediately flew straight back out. Had to drill and tap the back to make a more solid surface to pull them down onto. Worked well. Your idea is far better though. However at the time mine was get in and go. As regards to the rotation of injector i managed to get mine to rotate what i though was "enough" may have will lathe me a set of these up for the new project at some point though. Some really good info on here. Wish you had started this earlier so i didnt have any research to do lol

[japie]

Found an ready to go alternative: adjusting ring DIN 705/916
   
28mm diameter, 17mm hole and 12mm high, should work... (should save me some work if I found them sooner)

[zx_volcane]

This thread is magic

Thanks Japie for sharing your info with everyone, very kind of you

Hopefully will inspire some new and fantastic builds on here

[japie]

You don't have to thank me, there is a reason for my posts...

Over here on the mainland ;-) there is an everlasting battle between PSA and VW in our pulling competition, currently in the UK this class is starting and growing and guys are looking for engine information and I don't want them to buy VW stuff...
This way the UK guys have a home forum to go to for intel and a large user base (you guys) to ask for main parts, you see my goal?

In addition most likely the European Championship for us will be held at Great Eccleston so the more PSA's around the better...

[dashmader]

You don't have to thank me, there is a reason for my posts...

Over here on the mainland ;-) there is an everlasting battle between PSA and VW in our pulling competition, currently in the UK this class is starting and growing and guys are looking for engine information and I don't want them to buy VW stuff...
This way the UK guys have a home forum to go to for intel and a large user base (you guys) to ask for main parts, you see my goal?

In addition most likely the European Championship for us will be held at Great Eccleston so the more PSA's around the better...

Would you know if the 16v head have the same oil pressure regulator?? And if is the same procedure to rise oil pressure??

I got a dw10 block with a dw12 16v head on top...

[japie]

I suppose it is but you have to find out yourself...

[dashmader]

I suppose it is but you have to find out yourself...

Ok thank you. I will try to find the regulator and see if I can make this mod.
Do you know if the conrods you use are good to use in road?? I am trying to get more power from my 16 engine but the conrods are the weak point and they will break with more power.

[japie]

Never tried them in daily use, end next year we know how they keep up in a rally cross car... (on the other hand I can't find a reason why they wouldn't hold up for daily use, when searching the web the producers of steel say that is better and the aluminium rod people say aluminium is better, only time will tell)

[toseland]

depends on the fatigue of the aluminium tbh, thjey are used hard for 10seconds at a time, with rebuilds in between..

used for hours at a time under similar conditions (albeit with less stress) might bring about fatigue in places you didnt consider, (threads, etc).

also what about the applied heat in consitant hard use, do they tend to heat up more the longer you use them? (i know irrespective of oil and internal temperatures)

[JTaylor2005]

Whats stopping you having strong steel ones? Weight?

[Poodle]

Essentially yes, at high revs inertial forces go through the roof on the reciprocating parts, ie pistons and rods, so the lighter you can make them the better. Or at least that's why i'd assume Japie has gone for ally rods.

[japie]

Yes, and I also believe aluminium rods are stiffer then steel ones... (but again, steel or aluminium is debatable)

[Jackal]

Hi Japie,
Hope you well bud. We use alluminum rods in the V8s because they take a tiny bit of shock out!
Steel rods transfer the shock and knock the big end bearing. That's why we only use them for 45-80 runs and then change them because they are starting to get hair line cracks in them.

Jack

[Poodle]

Interesting to know, thanks Jackal.

[japie]

How much power are U producing with the V8 Jack?

[Jackal]

Our 572 cui supercharged V8 puts out around 2200hp... at 40psi (2.75bar) of boost
we get around 45 runs out of the rods... anything over 45 runs your starting to run the risk of a rod breaking up and kicking it out!

[toseland]

is that due to combustion pressures and forces associated with normal combustion, or just because you are running at such high revs with huge inertial forces..?

[japie]

First a note: I can't send private messages so you can ask me stuff but I have to use the forum itself to answer...

I continue my work with the injectors, we gonna use old-school injection either by using a line-pump (A, MW or P) or a non-electronic version of a rotor (VE) found on Ford Transit 2.5 and Land Rover 2.5. (you can use guides about VW pumps but due to smaller engines they have smaller plunger in the pump so it's better to start with something big right away ;-)
In this forum there is plenty info on how to ruin a VE rotor pump so maybe I skip that part, if I am correct Pugmarshall is doing that so maybe he is willing to add the pump part?

So the injectors, as wrote before I am using Land Rover 300tdi injectors, they are cheap and easy to work with and in stock setup they can handle up to 180cc (per 1000 injections) of fuel so that should be good enough for way over 200BPH.
But 200BPH is for sissies right? ;-)
We want to inject over 300cc of fuel so we need bigger nozzles, for that we choose DLLA144P144 which are used on Scania and MAN trucks, the main issue when choosing nozzles are the spraying angle (144 means 144 degree, original are 135 I believe so not to much difference) and the injector angle (the holes in the nozzle should reflect the correct injector angle else we will spray holes in the head or pistons the same way a water cutter does and believe me that will happen) unfortunately that angle is nowhere to be seen in the docs so that is trial and error...
Another thing according to nozzles is how to rotate them when mounting, these nozzles have 5 holes in it and since the injector is mounted under an angle you have to watch the position of the holes and rotate the injector when mounting to match it all up.
   

There are 2 ways to get a working injector, we can choose to either make a one-shot injector set at say 320bar that makes a hell of a bang but has some troubles running idle or we can follow the 300tdi injectors 2-stage injection setup:
   

p.s. if you want a single shot setup you can use the bushing from a DW10 Siemens piezo injector instead of the LaRo one, needs some mods to the rod use for the first spring so both the first and second spring are used at the same time but I won't describe that so you have some room for your own skills... ;-)
   

Over here a 300tdi injector in pieces:
   

Over here we see the 300tdi nozzle, the needle in the nozzle is the same hight as the nozzle so the bushing is limiting the needle movement.
   

The chamber in the inner part part of the bushing is 0,03mm and the part itself can move 0,27mm in the bushing so we have 0,03mm lift@200bar and a total of 0,3mm@300bar.
   

Over here our Scania nozzle which is single shot and a different design, the needle has a little rod on top which normally sits against the spring and the needle top itself is 0,3mm lower then the nozzle so the total needle movement is limited to that 0,3mm which is the same as with the LaRo injectors.
Since I want to copy the LaRo setup I have to remove the little bar on top of the needle and cut away 0.3mm of the top of the nozzle so needle and nozzle are lined up.
   

My first attempt was in the lathe but since all parts are machined at micron level (there are no gaskets between they are pressure tight steel on steel) that didn't work out very well I used a fine diamond cutting disc used to sharpen drills and machine tools.
I attached it in my mill running high speed with the nozzle on the table and only turning the X axis with a successful outcome.
   

Also the Scania nozzles are thicker then the originals, 9.07 v.s. 7.07mm so we need to cut them back in the lathe or we have to drill bigger holes in our cylinder head.
Drilling bigger holes is more convenient and safer (cutting back the nozzle can ruin them) but when making over 400BPH and temperatures over 1000 degree Celsius the head will start getting soft and the valve seats will drift away in the direction of the injector so when making the hole bigger that will happen a bit sooner.
What I do is only cutting back the first 10mm of the nozzle so I don't have to drill away material around my valve seats but even in this way there is a 50% chance the nozzle is ruined. (when cutting back the nozzle you go trough the hardened surface and internal tensions can bend it so the needle won't move so good or doesn't close anymore)
   

So to wrap it up, the easy way is making a single shot but that will have a pretty rough idle but doesn't require more then a grinder and the hard way is a 2-shot injector.
I always use a fine waterproof grinding paper on the inside of the nozzle and the needle itself so it gains a couple of microns more clearance and that will also remove factory oil and coating.
Lubricate before mounting with lots of WD40 and tighten the nozzles with 50Nm.
And make sure everything is very very very very clean before mounting!
   

[Uberderv]

Very interesting info, thanks.

[bashbarnard]

How have I not seen this latest update. I discussed with several people about shimming my landy ones to stop the pre injection but got advised against this in the end. I only manages to rotate the injectors so far with standard clamps. Your previous post with the circular holding will be used next time I attempt this as although mine ran, boosted and promptly bent a rod I think they were a little out as I was getting a slight haze so incomplete burn.

[japie]

You could try hardening the rods which will give you some extra space but bending them due to incomplete burn sounds silly, they bend either due to overpowering (200HP+), to much boost (3bar+) or due to a to early injection timing.
Happy holidays!