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+--- Forum: DW10 HDi section (https://www.306oc.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=10)
+--- Thread: dw10 crank swap 400HP (/showthread.php?tid=26135)
dw10 crank swap 400HP - japie - 23-08-2014
Hello,
We use the DW10 engine inside 2 tiny tractor pullers (~400HP@7000Krpm, 500Kpa boost @40 degree C, water injection, 260cc diesel injection 50 degree before TDC)
The first one:
https://picasaweb.google.com/minimumrisk.pulling.team/2014Montfoort#6045824998880710626
And the second one:
https://picasaweb.google.com/minimumrisk.pulling.team/2014Zele#6048774465777674882
Since we do stuff the engine wasn't intended to do there where a few small modifications: aluminium rods (got 20 at stock for whom's interested) and homemade pistons and some other minor mods to head and valves.
With these mods it tends to keep in one piece if we don't push it to hard to prevent the valve seats from melting down but there is one crucial point that is worrying: the crankshaft.
The big-ends are lubricated trough a hole that delivers a fresh oil film about 45 BTDC but unfortunately that is about the point our kaboom does it's work so we keep running into bearing issues since where a hole is there is no oil surface. (I am Dutch, sorry for the strange way to describe this)
After 2-3 runs we can see in our bearings where the ignition and hole comes together and that prevents us from making more power.
Does any of you over here nows if a XUD11 or another crank can be used that has the holes in another position?
RE: dw10 crank swap 400HP - cully - 23-08-2014
500Kpa is 72psi that is a lot of boost
those little tractors sound epic!
oh welcome along to the forum
RE: dw10 crank swap 400HP - mcglynn - 23-08-2014
What way have you modified the injectors?
Whats the prices on rods? Would be keen to hear more
RE: dw10 crank swap 400HP - Dum-Dum - 23-08-2014
I couldn't think I've even looked at where the oil holes were when I last had a crank out sorry.
RE: dw10 crank swap 400HP - japie - 24-08-2014
(23-08-2014, 09:20 PM)Dum-Dum Wrote: I couldn't think I've even looked at where the oil holes were when I last had a crank out sorry.We never looked at the holes to, caught our eye by accident...
Injectors are LaRo 300tdi holders with Scania truck nozzles inside, we use old fashion Bosch A and P line pumps for the fuel, they both have modified shafts inside, modified plungers and deliver up to 280cc in 5 pump degrees, injection peak pressure > 2500bar.
rods are about €190 (150GBP?) each but I have no idea how they will hold in "daily" use...
RE: dw10 crank swap 400HP - Piggy - 24-08-2014
Holy moly
RE: dw10 crank swap 400HP - japie - 24-08-2014
(24-08-2014, 06:09 AM)Piggy Wrote: Holy moly
No moly(bdeen) only aluminium... ;-)
About 450kg dry weight, 8l oil, 2l water injection, 2l diesel, 30l icewater for intercooler total weight on track maximum 600kg.
RE: dw10 crank swap 400HP - Poodle - 24-08-2014
(23-08-2014, 09:08 PM)mcglynn Wrote: What way have you modified the injectors?
Whats the prices on rods? Would be keen to hear more
This is no good for us buddy, it's mtdi stuff.
RE: dw10 crank swap 400HP - darrenjlobb - 24-08-2014
Epic levels of win..... Have spent hours looking at mini pullers with dw10 / XUD / vw tdi motors in them, right up my street!!
With regards to crankshaft, If im honest ive never paid massive ammounts of details to the position of the oil hole, as never had bearing problems yet... but then due to road / smoke / longeitibtgy issue, we also arnt running 400hp! Id imagine it would likely be a custom job though to improove upon...Have you tried coated bearings etc to help?
Either way epic build, please keep us up to date on progress!!
RE: dw10 crank swap 400HP - londondan86 - 24-08-2014
Oh dear god!!! Now this is a thread full of win!! Good work buddy, loving those little pullers.
Would there be any advantage using the 2.2 crank or even a different bearing material or as Darren said coating?
Either way most of the cars on here are used as daily drivers so very few are even making half that power so haven't come into these problems.
Look forward to progress though!
dw10 crank swap 400HP - zx_volcane - 24-08-2014
Wow, very interesting stuff there.
Epic little pullers!
Please keep us updated on them
RE: dw10 crank swap 400HP - Niall - 24-08-2014
Wow. Thats epic! More pics please
RE: dw10 crank swap 400HP - Grant - 24-08-2014
Love this thread. As said, more pictures please
RE: dw10 crank swap 400HP - Ruan - 25-08-2014
Absolutely love it!!! Massive tractor pulling fan - this is right up my street!
With regards to the problem with the oil film before 45BTDC - I'm surprised you're having as many problems, although cylinder pressures will be much higher, the ignition delay of Diesel surely isn't really starting to generate high cylinder pressures until a few degrees later?
You may want to look into DLC (Diamond-Like Carbon) coatings for the bearing surfaces which may allow you to get the fuel in a little bit earlier. Though as far as I'm aware, the XUD11 cranks are no better in terms of oiling holes, not to mention your rods wouldn't work with the crank since they're a wider crank journal width.
I'd be very interested to see what you've done with the valvetrain to hold it together at 500kPa and 7000+rpm!
RE: dw10 crank swap 400HP - Pebbles167 - 25-08-2014
I cant help with the questions mate, but those tractors are awesome!
RE: dw10 crank swap 400HP - japie - 25-08-2014
(25-08-2014, 11:55 AM)Ruan Wrote: Absolutely love it!!! Massive tractor pulling fan - this is right up my street!
With regards to the problem with the oil film before 45BTDC - I'm surprised you're having as many problems, although cylinder pressures will be much higher, the ignition delay of Diesel surely isn't really starting to generate high cylinder pressures until a few degrees later?
You may want to look into DLC (Diamond-Like Carbon) coatings for the bearing surfaces which may allow you to get the fuel in a little bit earlier. Though as far as I'm aware, the XUD11 cranks are no better in terms of oiling holes, not to mention your rods wouldn't work with the crank since they're a wider crank journal width.
I'd be very interested to see what you've done with the valvetrain to hold it together at 500kPa and 7000+rpm!
We can see the hole is a problem since it leaves a ferm impression on the bearing, how, what or why is not clear but the damage is there after one 10 second run, if other types use the same place we have to look for a way to plug the original one and drill another. (and thereby making it weaker)
The wider journal width is only 2mm (4mm stroke) so I can grind that away from the casting, no problem. (4mm for a DW12 would be more problematic)
The valve train is completely stock however I do have a dry sump turbo oil system so al of the pump capacity is used for the engine.
We use the ultimate road cam from piper cams, to our knowledge the fastest thing there is for these engines, if some of you know a more cruel cam please let me know!
Coatings do scare me, never seen wonders from it, only damage if it gets loose.
If you want some pics guys:
Yesterday:
https://picasaweb.google.com/minimumrisk.pulling.team/2014Alphen#6051373480189572578
(my 19 year old female driver did forget to give full throttle first piece but we ended up 2th)
https://picasaweb.google.com/minimumrisk.pulling.team/2014Alphen#6051373373978850034
My friend got 1st (but probably melted his 4th set of pistons this year, he uses stock not billet)
https://picasaweb.google.com/minimumrisk.pulling.team/TheBirthOfLittleRedRidingHoodAKARisk20#5881032861083445154
more stuff in our web album: https://picasaweb.google.com/minimumrisk.pulling.team
RE: dw10 crank swap 400HP - Ruan - 25-08-2014
(25-08-2014, 04:20 PM)japie Wrote:(25-08-2014, 11:55 AM)Ruan Wrote: Absolutely love it!!! Massive tractor pulling fan - this is right up my street!
With regards to the problem with the oil film before 45BTDC - I'm surprised you're having as many problems, although cylinder pressures will be much higher, the ignition delay of Diesel surely isn't really starting to generate high cylinder pressures until a few degrees later?
You may want to look into DLC (Diamond-Like Carbon) coatings for the bearing surfaces which may allow you to get the fuel in a little bit earlier. Though as far as I'm aware, the XUD11 cranks are no better in terms of oiling holes, not to mention your rods wouldn't work with the crank since they're a wider crank journal width.
I'd be very interested to see what you've done with the valvetrain to hold it together at 500kPa and 7000+rpm!
We can see the hole is a problem since it leaves a ferm impression on the bearing, how, what or why is not clear but the damage is there after one 10 second run, if other types use the same place we have to look for a way to plug the original one and drill another. (and thereby making it weaker)
The wider journal width is only 2mm (4mm stroke) so I can grind that away from the casting, no problem. (4mm for a DW12 would be more problematic)
The valve train is completely stock however I do have a dry sump turbo oil system so al of the pump capacity is used for the engine.
We use the ultimate road cam from piper cams, to our knowledge the fastest thing there is for these engines, if some of you know a more cruel cam please let me know!
Coatings do scare me, never seen wonders from it, only damage if it gets loose.
I think the translation has gone wrong on the journal width - the stroke shouldn't be a problem as you say as you can deck the block - by the crank journal width I mean:
![[Image: rjjm20.jpg]](http://oi58.tinypic.com/rjjm20.jpg)
This measurement is wider than the DW10 crank - it is the same on the XUD9/DW10 engines - on the larger XUD11/DW12 engines it's larger.
I also think the rod is located on the little end in DW10 but on the big end in DW12 - don't quote me on that, that may be a rumour.
I do agree with you with regards to coatings - maybe if you needed to make the engine survive at 46*BTDC, the coating may help, but you will want to push for 50*+++ SOI and more power - you'll probably cause damage and wreck the coating rendering it useless.
RE: dw10 crank swap 400HP - welshpug - 25-08-2014
I see you get your fluid lines from Alex just up the road from me in Wales
RE: dw10 crank swap 400HP - cully - 25-08-2014
thank you for sharing this is awesome!
RE: dw10 crank swap 400HP - japie - 26-08-2014
(25-08-2014, 05:11 PM)Ruan Wrote:
This measurement is wider than the DW10 crank - it is the same on the XUD9/DW10 engines - on the larger XUD11/DW12 engines it's larger.
The attached pic from the DW10 shows one issue regarding the hole, at the surface it takes half the size of the journal width due to it's spherical shape. (don't know how to describe it)
I found a pic of a XUD11 and there the hole is just the hole and due to the slightly bigger bearing it takes only 1/4th of the surface so I think that is what's going in there this winter.
@welshplug: yes we do use Alex his fittings, he has nice prices and fast service, always a pleasure to do business with him...
nobody on faster cams then the piper ones?
RE: dw10 crank swap 400HP - Poodle - 26-08-2014
I'm not aware of anyone producing cams for this engine besides piper tbh.
Epic machines these, fair play!
RE: dw10 crank swap 400HP - japie - 26-08-2014
(26-08-2014, 05:40 AM)Poodle Wrote: I'm not aware of anyone producing cams for this engine besides piper tbh.
Epic machines these, fair play!
Over here in Holland it's a battle between the PSA en VW engines, the VW is about 15 years older (in design) but in Germany you can buy stage1-5 stuff for it.
Luckely for us the PSA is that much more reliable that it got us the Dutch and European championship last year with the Risk-2.0 and this year the Dutch number one for the 2.0 and 2th place for the Minimumrisk.
Next saterday we have the EC so if the rain stops we will try to grab that to...
RE: dw10 crank swap 400HP - zx_volcane - 26-08-2014
(26-08-2014, 05:31 AM)japie Wrote: nobody on faster cams then the piper ones?
I had a standard cam re-ground for my XUD rather than buy one off the shelf, might be worth getting one made up to your specs?
RE: dw10 crank swap 400HP - japie - 26-08-2014
(26-08-2014, 09:00 AM)zx_volcane Wrote: I had a standard cam re-ground for my XUD rather than buy one off the shelf, might be worth getting one made up to your specs?I don't think that fits our budget, I allow myself €1000 per year but that includes insurance and registration... (so I have to carefully balance where the money goes to, also need some more wheel-speed on my machine so have to build a new rear axle which probably will eat half my budget, crank 100, 4 new pistons 40, 4 larger water nozzles 160 and a new turbine housing for my HX40 so maybe 100 left...)
We did make a cam of our own from chromo42 but cam development is a art form on it's own and out of my league I think...
dw10 crank swap 400HP - tb205gti - 05-09-2014
What have you done to the head to get 500kpa through it? Also what cr are you running?
RE: dw10 crank swap 400HP - japie - 05-09-2014
(05-09-2014, 02:21 PM)tb205gti Wrote: What have you done to the head to get 500kpa through it? Also what cr are you running?
Everything David Vizzard told me to do... ;-)
We have a 1:12.8 compression ratio (if that is what you meant with cr) below 1:12 it will run but giving more fuel only results in bigger bangs and flames but not more rpm.
RE: dw10 crank swap 400HP - silverzx - 05-09-2014
I didn't even know this sort of insane stuff existed...
RE: dw10 crank swap 400HP - Poodle - 05-09-2014
Oh so you went to one of Vizzards talks, was it as good as it's meant to be?
RE: dw10 crank swap 400HP - zx_volcane - 05-09-2014
Paul lent me one of Vizard's books on ford pinto engines - damn good read
Didn't know he did talks?
dw10 crank swap 400HP - tb205gti - 05-09-2014
Vizard talks about petrol engines
a diesel is a whole different story.. But recon you do not care much about MPG