Starting issue (PP2000 video) * NOW FIXED

[DeeTurbo]

Will do Niall.

Those filings look indicative of a failed LP pump (copper armature breaking up).

I read something recently that described how the valve in the HP pump works. If the fuel pressure from the LP pump is below a certain value, the valve doesn't allow fuel into the HP compression side of the pump, but instead allows SOME fuel into the pump to lubricate it whilst cranking.

Did you change the fuel filter after changing the LP? maybe those bits of copper got into your new pump's lubrication valve, causing slow opening?

http://injectionpumps.redirectme.net/pum...ch_CP1.pdf - Page2

That sounds interesting I'll have a read up on that but the LP pump and filter were changed before the HP pump was installed.

Also I would have a starting issue all the time if it were that. At the moment it's only with the cold weather.

[vincent1]

I suppose in the morning when cold you could run a live straight from the battery to the glow plugs rail to see if it starts quicker im sure ive read somewhere the glow plug relay dosnt kickin till a certain low temperature is reached? but there again these hdi do usually start ok cold so could possibly be the pump.

[DeeTurbo]

It's not the pumps as they both been replaced and have made no difference to the starting issue, also the demand on PP2000 shows the HP pump to be healthy.

I'm leaning to the ECU for an issue. I've got a spare but it's a single plug and I need a three plug version

I'll try the direct to the glow plugs tomorrow.

[Ruan]

ECUs don't tend to "go faulty" - they're heavily protected against that sort of thing! It'll be more an electrical or mechanical fault rather than an electronics fault...

I certainly wouldn't bother changing ECUs out!

Have you got a video of it starting, if I can hear what it does, I can possibly try and tell easier what is causing the problem.

[DeeTurbo]

I shall get a video tomorrow morning if it's still cold before trying the direct power to glow plugs .

I'll also record the live data from pp2000.

[Poodle]

Glow plugs is a good shout actually, could be a dead relay. I'd be surprised to see a lack of plugs making it this difficult to start though.

If the engine had bugger all compression you'd be right, Ruan, but if it's only down a little, ie a few psi, it can make it hard to start without much further in the way of noticeable side effects besides running a touch rough.

[DeeTurbo]

Glow plugs is a good shout actually, could be a dead relay. I'd be surprised to see a lack of plugs making it this difficult to start though.

But the relay seemed to power the glow plug that I clamped to the block?

It wasn't cold enough for the fault to show up today.

http://youtu.be/bknNmP5dsxc

[Poodle]

Ah my mistake, i thought you had said you'd clamped one up to the battery.

That's about right, it won't happen again until you forget to get the camera out.

[DeeTurbo]

Not cold enough today :-(

[DeeTurbo]

Tried it again this morning.


http://youtu.be/hd4_392PylQ

http://youtu.be/4MLYf-ZQdUs?list=UUAjMXH...tUY2e7ws9g

Still not cold enough for the really long cranking it sometime takes.

[DeeTurbo]

I've had a thought and I think it looks like the fuel pressure is taking too long to build up.

Any ideas on why this would be the case only when the weather is cold?

Would the cold have any effect on the FPS or maybe worn injectors?

Hopefully there will be a frost tomorrow and I can show you how much longer it takes to start it when it's really cold.

[DeeTurbo]

Tried it this morning, there was a thick frost on the car and it took a while for it to start.


So it definitely the fuel pressure taking a while to build up.

To summaries:

Good R70 pump installed
Good starter installed off later HDI
Earths cleaned and recrimped leads
Good LP pump installed off my hatchback
Checked power to glow plugs and removed and check plugs

The only other thing I can think of replacing would be the injectors.

[phil clark]

Im curious, does the heater plug light flash on, then go straight off on a cold morning start?. The plugs on these Engines seldom get used from cold start in the uk, and then only kick into life after for around 90 or so seconds for an eco warm up burn. Mine was doing this, and I changed the temp sender and it stopped.
I beleave the sender wasn't telling the ECU how cold the Engine actually was, and it was trying to start as if it were summer lol.

[DeeTurbo]

On the HDI's the light only comes on a short while but the pugs do warm up on a lot of starts, I can't remember the exact temperatures at the minute.

I had a look on PP2000 and the coolant, fuel and air temps all looked ok so I think I might have a different issue to the one you had.

I can only think it's got to be a fuel related issue because as soon as you crank it over you should get the 300bar for it to start and the injectors are the only thing I've not changed on the fuel circuit. Hopefully I can change them tomorrow and see what happens.

[phil clark]

Well it has to be something temperature related, else you'd of still had these issues during the warm months bud. Every 6 weeks or so I run a fuel system cleaner through to try and keep things nice and clean. Such a fine balance with the DW10 in our 306's, because when they were being built it was in effect a test bed of new derve technology, which everyone there after wanted. Sometimes its hard to see the woods for the trees, and pin point a problem. Id personally explore every Avenue including compression before lashing out serious doe. I did all the head on mine when it was off at around 140k, and it needed it, but I suppose it depends a lot on how there driven before you own them. :-) 

[DeeTurbo]

Yeah, this is the thing I don't understand, it sounds like a classic glow plug issue at first look but they seem to be good and the live data is pointing to fuel pressure issue. The only thing on the fuel circuit that hasn't been replaced is the injectors but the other thing is it's been running fine over the summer.

[DeeTurbo]

Oops I stuck the wrong video up the other day.

This is the one that took a bit longer to start when I had a thick frost over the car. At the later part of the video I go in to the other parameter page and it shows the coolant, fuel and air temperatures.

http://youtu.be/wlWwPeA9FiE

[DeeTurbo]

Good news;

The starting issue seems to have been fixed with the replacement injectors.

The car started up first turn of the crank.

Check out the fix here http://306oc.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?...#pid525030

[Poodle]

Interesting, thanks for updating, glad you got it sorted.