Starting issue (PP2000 video) * NOW FIXED

[DeeTurbo]

Hi guys,

Since I heard about the starting issue on this car before buying it I always thought it was a fuel pressure issue but after getting planet on it I found a glow plug relay fault and with the starting issue worse when it was cold in the mornings I thought I'd change it to see if that sorts it.

Changing it didn't solve the problem but I did a video of the fuel rail pressure, I've noticed that it's not very high and I'm thinking this is why it's not starting well.

There are no signs of any diesel leaks on the high pressure side so I can only guess the pump, injectors or both are worn out but could the HPR cause low pressure in the rail? I'm not getting any cutting out issues just the slow to starting problem.

Heres the video I made.
http://youtu.be/NgSreIe7xxU

This other video is of my girlfriends 206 2.0 HDI starting. You can see it builds pressure so quickly that it starts before you can see the numbers for the pressure rising.

http://youtu.be/JR0Q17KNJ-o

Also because I can see the injection quantities via planet does this mean that I don't need to do a leak off test on the injectors or is it best to do one anyway? You can see in the first video that injector 3 is injecting a lot more than the rest, could this mean that one is the dodgy one?

I look forward to your input.


*EDIT

So you don't have to trawl through the thread the issue was the injectors. Swapped them out and it now starts first turn of the crank.

[HDi--Power]

Is your battery a bit weak? It is building pressure very slowly!!!
The injector correction values are created by the injector "listening" to each injection and adding and removing fuel accordingly, they dont necessarily tell the whole story a leak off test would, which speaking of would be my next port of call followed by a new hp pump if they are ok

[DeeTurbo]

Yeah the battery is a bit on the weak side but the one on the 206 turns over just as slow but that starts up as soon as it finishes a turn.

I shall do a leak off test and what do you think about the fuel pressure regulator, could that cause a low pressure issue?

Thanks for your reply.

[HDi--Power]

If it was faulty I suppose but i think too many people pin too much hope on their fuel pressure regulator Worth giving it a clean I think but it wouldn't be my first port of call for a replacement part

[Ruan]

Sticky FPR maybe or weak HP pump.

I'd swap out the FPR first... The correction values won't be honed in when started from cold, it's monitoring crank acceleration per piston stroke, when you have even remotely dicky injectors these figures will be thrown around a lot - they come in when warm and it really starts to use them properly.

EDC15 isn't the best at correcting the values, they're a bit slow and the calibration isn't amazing - that's why you hear HDis hunt a little when you first start them, they don't run instantly smoothly, it's because of it trying to adjust the injectors, but as they wear, the calibration for this just isn't great, so they hunt a little.

Give the leakoffs a try, but remember that the HP pump is capable of injecting probably 35mm^3/str at idle rpms, at idle you're asking for naff all, the leakoffs wouldn't cause enough leak at idle to stop it starting.

[DeeTurbo]

Awesome, Thanks for the info guys.

I have a known good FPR that I can throw on to check and I've got a R70 pump if the one on the car is weak.

I will also be doing a leak off tonight. I've got some 072 injectors for my other car and then the ones removed will go in this.

I was starting to think it might be a compression issue in the cylinders causing my starting issue because I've notice a bit of blue smoke when cold.

With hunting, would a low mileage set of injectors sort that?

[Ruan]

The blue when starting is possibly valve stem seals or poorly injectors... Poorly combusting Diesel can manifest itself anywhere from bright white to blue to thick black depending on the stage of combustion when it went out the exhaust...

The hunting is typical of all HDis - it's the ECU trying to compensate for changes in engine speed and smooth it out but doing so badly... It's especially noticable when you have a free'r exhaust, you really hear the injection quantity adjustments the ECU is making as "lumps". Injectors may help it a little as it's not trying to compensate for each injector as much.

Let us know how you get on

[DeeTurbo]

I did a leak off test in my lunch break.



This is what I got after five minutes. Should I have run it for longer?

I've not measured it yet but they look good.

Do you know what volume I should have over a given time?

I also took the FPR out and cleaned it.

Looks dirty and need a clean.





Notice that there isn't an outer O ring. I shit myself and thought I lost it and I took one of my spare FPR to put on this one, but I don't think this one had one as there is a gasket that I've not see before.

I think the starting is due to a weak pump. I did a video on the way to work and you can see the demand goes up to and over 40% when I boot it, what do you think?

http://youtu.be/PYwgUMOMJJk

This video was of me trying to start it this morning. It took two attempts.

http://youtu.be/X8AB3Lmm3Pc

Or could there be two faults here? I'm also thinking lazy starter motor? I might see about swamping the one of my hatch and see how that goes.

[HDi--Power]

injectors look good! Given that much dirt made it to the fpr id say the pump is just worn out, the most I have seen is a few specs of dirt but yours is beyond filthy!

[DeeTurbo]

I take it that it's a good job that the filter is there as if it wasn't would that dirt have killed the injectors?

Is it dirt or could it be worn filings from the HP pump? I wish I'd taken a closer look at the particles before cleaning it off.

Do you know how much the injectors should leak off?

[HDi--Power]

yes the little gauze probably helped! but it is pointing towards your hp pump now, it looks like dirt from the picture! Depending on the numbers there are different rates at idle over a 10 minute period but given yours are all the same i would say they are ok, usually one will be double or treble the rest if it is badly worn

[Ruan]

Injectors look perfectly normal - FPR doesn't.

Get the fuel filter out and see if there's any filings in there... Looks to me like something is breaking up.

Starter motor sounds lazy - but that just sounds like typical battery/earth issues - check them out, you could also get a earlier HDi starter, that's got the low torque starter they put on DTs and later HDis - sounds totally different, same motor, different gearing.

[DeeTurbo]

Cheers for all your help guys.

I always learn so much when faults occur.

I will go over the earth points and I'll be replacing the "big three" anyway.

The fuel filter was the first thing I changed when I got the car as I know they sometimes get forgotten about. When I opened the top to my surprise I found a clean filter there, I replaced it anyway.

Do you know what year they swapped to the newer style starters?

[Poodle]

Iirc it's about 8mm a minute for the injectors.

Lol at that fpr, that's a mess! Cleaning that up could make a significant difference tbh, trying it with a clean tidy one could sort it, but i'm inclined to agree with Ruan - for there to be that much muck on it, post filter...

[DeeTurbo]

Iirc it's about 8mm a minute for the injectors.

Lol at that fpr, that's a mess! Cleaning that up could make a significant difference tbh, trying it with a clean tidy one could sort it, but i'm inclined to agree with Ruan - for there to be that much muck on it, post filter...

Yeah, it's crazy. I should have got a better photo of it, I only took that with my photo.

I left the car at work and I'll be trying to start it in the morning when I get there. I wonder if the cleaner FPR will have any effect on the cold starting.

Is that 8ml a minute?

[Poodle]

Er yeah...

Iirc it's about 8ml a minute for the injectors.

Ahem

[DeeTurbo]

Thanks, I wasn't sure if it was mm in some sort of special leak off test bottles or something.

[DeeTurbo]

Well I bump started the car down the hill and as soon as i dumped the clutch it started. Sometime over the weekend I'll be swapping the starter motor from my hatchback over to the estate and see if that makes any difference. I'll also be checking the earths and probably replacing some of the battery cables.

[HDi--Power]

Well I bump started the car down the hill and as soon as i dumped the clutch it started. Sometime over the weekend I'll be swapping the starter motor from my hatchback over to the estate and see if that makes any difference. I'll also be checking the earths and probably replacing some of the battery cables.

Thats only because when bump starting you are spinning the pump much faster, thus masking the issue. Its worth a look but I wouldnt be sure its earths or a starter

[Uberderv]

I wouldn't worry too much about the injectors getting dirt/debris through them as they have a laminar filter built into the inlet union. These typically let things 5micron and under past.

The starter on an Xud7/9 should spin the engine faster, I think the drive gear has less teeth than Hdi unit.

Just out of interest, is it pump diesel because it looks quite dark?

[DeeTurbo]

I shall change the pump and yeah it's esso diesel. The bottles weren't a bit dirty so I think that might have caused the diesel look darker.

[DeeTurbo]

Resurrecting this thread as the starting issue has come back with the cold weather.

Since the above;

• Good R70 pump installed
  
• Good starter installed off later HDI
  
• Earths cleaned and recrimped leads
  
• Good LP pump installed off my hatchback
  
• Checked power to glow plugs and removed and check plugs
  

The car has been running fine since the weather was warmer but now it takes a few turns for it to start.

The LP pump sometimes doesn't prime on the first time but I always keep an ear out for it and turn off and try again. It always primes on the second attempt.

The car did brake down in June, that was down to the brown relay, luckily I had a spare on me so that was changed there and then. But it still doesn't prime every time. I'm not sure if the two issues are linked but I thought I'd bring it up in case they are.

Over the weekend I checked power to the plugs and it seems good.

Today I took out a plug out, clamped it to the block and powered it up from the ignition via the glow plug relay and it powered up fine, glowed red to the tip.

What else could I check? I'm really starting to think that the issue might be low compression in the cylinders.

Little video of a glow plug clamped.
http://youtu.be/7ifT376oKmg

[Poodle]

What kind of mileage are you on now? Could well be low compression if it's getting on in life (300k plus kinda getting on).

[DeeTurbo]

This is on around 225k miles now, done 5k miles in it so far. It's been awesome over the warmer weather, I've even drove up to the Lakes (5hr drive) and been all over with it towing my little kart trailer.



It's my hatchback that's on 320k miles now. That's still going strong and it's engine is still sounding healthy.

How do you do a compression test on a diesel, is it via the holes for the glow plugs and any idea what the lowest it could be?

[Poodle]

Yeah that's right, i don't know the expected values off the top of my head.

Could still be compression i guess, if it's had a hard life. I had similar problems which ended up with a non-starter. I misdiagnosed it as the immobiliser, but the ecu doctor reported the fuel chip in the ecu had burnt out. Remote possibility tbf.

[DeeTurbo]

Ahh, that's why I said about my priming to, I wonder if the two are related by an ECU issue?

I might have to see if I can swap the ECU and CPH for known good ones to see if that helps.

[Ruan]

Try see if it starts any easier if you ram a positive lead manually to the glow plug rail... That'll force them to glow, if it starts easier then it's not a compression issue.

TBH I SERIOUSLY doubt it's a compression issue, you'd know if it was, it'll idle very poorly, white smoke etc...

I still personally would put money on simply a bad starter motor if it still cranks slow.

[DeeTurbo]

That puts my mind at rest to hear you say that as it runs fine when started. and it spins over nice and fast now since fitting the replacement starter motor earlier this year.

Would it be best to disconnect the feed going to it before connecting up the manual feed? Just wondering if the back feed would damage anything?

[Niall]

I would disconnect the normal live as i would imagine its relay fed so there would be no backfeeding but just in case its not, probably best to. Back feeding can do some weird and wonderful things!

[rajjinator]

Those filings look indicative of a failed LP pump (copper armature breaking up).

I read something recently that described how the valve in the HP pump works. If the fuel pressure from the LP pump is below a certain value, the valve doesn't allow fuel into the HP compression side of the pump, but instead allows SOME fuel into the pump to lubricate it whilst cranking.

Did you change the fuel filter after changing the LP? maybe those bits of copper got into your new pump's lubrication valve, causing slow opening?

http://injectionpumps.redirectme.net/pum...ch_CP1.pdf - Page2