Thinking out loud about mtdi

[todd1983]

When my 6 blows up I will convert it to diesel......It makes sense for me and I don't know why I never considered it for my track car in the first place tbh. I already have a modded 3ltr diesel bmw, I'm paid to maintain large diesel engines lol, and as my car doesn't see the road I could run it on red which would cost me nothing lol

[bashbarnard]

So the transit injectors I have at work are wrong due to being Lucas. The 300tdi ones in waiting for a mate to come back to me on. Also thinking does the Bosch ve from the landy bolt up to the pug bracket. If so I can just use that. The only problem is they are fixed and don't have slotted holes. Which can be fixed I guess. So I'm hopefully gonna look at one of the as well. I've got four pump brackets here to butcher so its all good.

[Ruan]

I've looked into this severely before - great ideas, but there's a few things you need to be aware of.

Fitting a LR pump gives you the advance curve for a 2.5 litre, low revving, long stroke engine which is designed to rev to about 3200rpm and pull tree stumps out, but you're trying to build for a 2.0 litre almost square engine in comparison which will rev relatively well. You'll find that the VW guys tried this a lot and repeatedly found you basically have to completely recalibrate the advance curve for the smaller lighter revvier engine.

Also as you've found, these engines are adjusted on the vernier pulley, not on the slots - so either you find a correctly sized vernier pulley for the pump which fits the LR shaft or you grind out the slots in the pump. One is reasonably difficult to find and the other is a total f*cking bodge! The way to do it correctly is to build it into the 306 pump, but find out what affects the advance curve and swap it over Also I don't know if the register on the snout is the same diameter - so you need to check that too if you do plan on the LR pump - which I wouldn't recommend.

The injectors are NOT as simple as "bang some 300tdi ones in" when doing this to an 8v engine - whilst they may *fit* they are by no means correct, you need to look at cone angles and plane angles, not to mention mounting offsets when swapping nozzles - trust me, it's a nightmare, 8v HDi guys simply can't find nozzles to fit in a CR application that are a real decent upgrade - I seriously considered this as an option and unless you want a ~140hp engine, which an XUD will do reliably, you're pretty stumped in terms of nozzles, unless you plan on risking wrong angles and just praying you don't turn the piston into a molten gob of mess. The JTD CR nozzles are also fairly useless in terms of our application, iirc they won't fit anyway and they're pretty small, but they can run 1200bar...



A'la above.

[bashbarnard]

The landy pump was an idea I also read about them having to shim the pump to get the advance curve right. Which seemed like a pain. I was originally going to use most the internals

As for the nozzles I am struggling like hell ATM trying to find something that will work. I agree the injectors fit but that's as far as they go. If I cant find or build injectors that work that's this idea out the window. Been doing so much research but as you say it is just the injectors that are the real issue.

[Dum-Dum]

You may find sorting spray angles a little easier if you used a 16v HDi as then the injector isnt sat at a funny angle.

[bashbarnard]

Fair enough. I'll have a nose into it tonight when I have a computer and some time. Spray angles are hard to find info on though. Also I'm pretty sure the 16v head fits directly on the dw10 allowing a lot of plug and play stuff.

[Ruan]

You may find sorting spray angles a little easier if you used a 16v HDi as then the injector isnt sat at a funny angle.

Then try and find some bodies with the two bolt hold down around the top in the correct length Both are just as much of a nightmare.

[bashbarnard]

This is a nightmare. I will look into more tonight. Its been done but no figures of power. The idea of this whole build is to have a reliable 170bhp. Then maybe push it a bit.

[Ruan]

Mmmhmm.

The biggest problem is - PSA never did a VP37 electromechanically injected, DI engine - so the parts bin is really limited. They went straight from mechanical indirect to Commonrail.

They were fully aware that mechanical DI engines are actually a bit pants, it was only Commonrail that could surpass an IDI engine in terms of refinement and emissions.

[bashbarnard]

It looks like we are slowly but surely having issues arise with this that I cant sort without spending a tonne of monies. I'm looking into more tonight but if it all goes tits up (which would be a shame) I'm just back to square one of finding a 2.1

[Dum-Dum]

There are good reasons those of us who have owned them bang on about the XUD11.

Are you gonna have a driveway day, put on a BBQ and get the XUD11 fanboys over to give you a hand fitting

[bashbarnard]

Could do one better and do it at my work. That way ramps and tools readily available. Will be April when it goes in.

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Also still looking into injector dilema. Its weird I cant find a thing

[bashbarnard]

bumping an old thread i created now. as you all know by now i went out and set about the original idea of putting the 2.1 in mine. which imo is epic. however This has recently been on my mind again after a friend of mine wants to build a m-tdi vw, which in comparison to the pug is easy!! Its got me thinking about pulling this out the depths and MAYBE attempting to build a M-TDI soon myself. be vw, pug no idea just something new that doesnt have to be a reliable daily so i can go bat shit crazy with it

[Dum-Dum]

Start with a 2.2 HDi lump and 300tdi injector bodies then go from there

[bashbarnard]

maybe. i was thinking a 2.0 litre bottom end 16v head. that way more stuff is plug and play for me

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also this is blatantly happening in a 205 not a 306. i already own a win 306. well imo i do anyway

[toseland]

maybe. i was thinking a 2.0 litre bottom end 16v head. that way more stuff is plug and play for me

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Oi thats my idea, haha!

[Dum-Dum]

^^^ Already being done by several other people on the forum who are actually in the process of building them

[toseland]

^^^ Already being done by several other people on the forum who are actually in the process of building them

shh...  no-one asked you millar! lol

[bashbarnard]

Lol calm down ladies. The reason I want to use the 16v head is actually partially down to toesland saying that injectors were slightly different at fcs. Upon further investigation it turns out they are. Therefore there may be more options. Ive also been bitch slapped by ruan on this subject before. So the more I think about either a complete 2.2 or a 16v head may be the only ways to go in respect to the injector soloution.

[Dum-Dum]

IIRC both 16v heads are the same, the blocks are the same bore and it's just the stroke that's longer. I like a nice long stroke but it seems I'm alone in that feeling on this forum, most seem to like short strokes.

[bashbarnard]

I like a long stroke. Hence the 2.1. And that numbing lube you put on your cock yo make you last longer.

[Poodle]

I believe it's darren's thread you want to look at, his last project was based on mtdi-ing a 16v engine iirc. The reason for using the 16v head was mostly due to the 0 degree plane angle of the injectors - gave a lot more choice of suitable nozzles.

[bashbarnard]

I believe it's darren's thread you want to look at, his last project was based on mtdi-ing a 16v engine iirc. The reason for using the 16v head was mostly due to the 0 degree plane angle of the injectors - gave a lot more choice of suitable nozzles.

Exactly why im thinking about using it. All this info im trying to gather will help for when a project does finally come to light. When I get a second free over the next few nights im going to start looking into injectors for the 16 valver

[toseland]

I I will let you do all the work, produce a ridiculous write up, really detailed and comprehensive enough to allow me to then simply fit the thing and bang.. Done haha.. 

Oh and all the research I have done,  anyone know why pretty much EVERY conversion I read about is the 16valve heads being changed to the 8valve heads,  loads of taxis seem to go 16to8 so I was interested as to why.. (Google 16v hdi conversion) 

[bashbarnard]

But every conversion you've probably found is with ecus. I'll have a google anyway.

[mr_fish]

What I've heard, from the garage spanner monkeys, is the 16v head is an utter twunt.

Cambelt snaps or EGR gunks everything up.
To then remove the cam cover the Injectors get stuck in the head.
Possibly damage said injectors when trying to remove.
Cam cover now off and discover (don't quote me) something to do with the internal cam chain tensioner has worn and now eaten into the actual head itself.

Therefore head is debatable whether to use.


Though would be interesting as not many 16v setups are kicking about.

[Dum-Dum]

Yeah the OEM injectors are a PIG to get out and the whole head will be proper thick with EGR gunk

[darrenjlobb]

Only just seen this thread so will have my say, writing from my phone though so bear with me!

M-tdi is the best of both worlds for the average home tuner, you get the ease of tuning adjustments from the rotary VE pump, and all the benefits of a DI motor, its been 3 years I think since I took my DT off the road , and I still miss it , mainly down to its engine, even if I wasn't ever opened up to extremes at that point.

As people have said, the most critical parts of these conversions are the pump and injectors...the pump, is very simple to sort out, and with some experience / experimentation can very easily be set up to work very well and cost very little.
The injectors are where things become a little more tricky, however if you have a pop tester, and some experience, can also be sorted out very easily.

The main reason I originally used the 16v engine was due to injectors, its flat plane, and there are literally thousands of injectors out there in stock form with suitable nozzles for making good or big power, finding bodies is also cheap and easy with some research.
The 8v however although finding injectors to physically fit is a piece of cake (easier than 16v), getting the cone angle and rotation correct is much harder, due to the awkward injector angle on the 8v. However there are options out there, but to make big power would require stock nozzles being honed by an experienced diesel shop, as finding big nozzles for more than 150-160hp is impossible...

Overall its all possible fairly easily, but as with everything if your doing it all yourself, it will require some time and money getting all the right parts together.

[bashbarnard]

Thanks Darren. The project at this time is in the planning stage and will be for a while untill our other ongoing mini project is finished. So at the moment im trying to gather as much info as possible and lick some arse up the road from me to get a cheap unit. The one thing I don't have is a pop tester to hand though. It may be an idea to invest in one in the near future when I have the space.

[Dum-Dum]

What is a pop tester out of interest. What does it do and how does it work?