205 DT sleeper - boosting video pg10 and pg11

[Matt]

Ginge when are you in my territory?

[cwspellowe]

I was having identical issues with the estate when I first fitted the engine. Ended up being that i'd locked the fly with a small allen key and there was a bit of play, enough to leave the belt a tooth out. I was adamant i'd timed it properly too until I used the correctly sized allen key and properly locked off the cam and pump rather than a bolt-part-in locking off.

[Ruan]

I was having identical issues with the estate when I first fitted the engine. Ended up being that i'd locked the fly with a small allen key and there was a bit of play, enough to leave the belt a tooth out. I was adamant i'd timed it properly too until I used the correctly sized allen key and properly locked off the cam and pump rather than a bolt-part-in locking off.

This!!!

The timing is SO easy to cock up on these engines - literally the slightest slack one way will instantly cause it as the slack has to go somewhere!

I've done it countless times putting the cambelt back on!

[ginge191]

I was having identical issues with the estate when I first fitted the engine. Ended up being that i'd locked the fly with a small allen key and there was a bit of play, enough to leave the belt a tooth out. I was adamant i'd timed it properly too until I used the correctly sized allen key and properly locked off the cam and pump rather than a bolt-part-in locking off.

This!!!

The timing is SO easy to cock up on these engines - literally the slightest slack one way will instantly cause it as the slack has to go somewhere!

I've done it countless times putting the cambelt back on!

What's the best route to take (ie; whats the best order to put the belt on? cam - pump - crank? crank - cam - pump? crank - pump - cam?)

[Pompey306mark]

Either way its going to be a bitch in the limited 205 space.

Crank pump cam I guess. As we did it the opposite way.

[Ruan]

Right - when you put the belt on - make sure the cams are locked solidly - i.e central to the holes and no movement - same with crank.

Then put the belt on the crank cambelt pulley and put the aux pulley on so it can't fall off, then place over the front idler, then YANK upwards on the belt forwards and place over the PUMP pulley if there's any slack in the belt, don't think you can put it on backwards a tooth, it should sit TIGHT from the crank to the pump pulley, no slack.

THEN place over the CAM pulley - again pull it TIGHT over the cam pulley - there should be very little slack between the cam and pump, any slack and you're ready for a tooth off... If needs be, even put a spanner on the cam pulley to move it round when the lock pins are in i there's a bit of slack so the teeth sit tight in...

THEN place round the rear tensioner and release the tensioner and you should see all the slack go from the back of the belt and there be NO slack between the cam and pump and NO slack between the pump and crank... Any slack there and as soon as you turn it over, it'll budge around and cause it to come out of time.

Just keep in mind all the time that slack can ONLY go down the back towards the tensioner as that's the only adjustable distance, if you leave slack between anything else, when you release the tensioner, it'll pull the pulleys off their marks...

Comprende?

Sorry for the essay.

[ginge191]

yes, all makes sense. so you're pulling all the slack towards the tensioner, working anti-clockwise around the engine, starting from the crank?

[Ruan]

Yes - bingo.

Come back when that's done and go from there.

As said, sounds like your pump is in time, you just allowed a bit of slack between the pump and cam and it's pulled it when releasing the tensioner.

What you using for lock bolts - intercooler bolts?

[ginge191]

Yes - bingo.

Come back when that's done and go from there.

As said, sounds like your pump is in time, you just allowed a bit of slack between the pump and cam and it's pulled it when releasing the tensioner.

What you using for lock bolts - intercooler bolts?

yeh; it's tough tensioning, i have to bring the engine forward - the socket for the tensioner fouls on the chassis, so have to tilt the engine back as far as possible

I'll see if rich is around when i come to do it, i had mark last time pushing the engine back. such a pita.

But thanks, i'll get on it

[Pompey306mark]

I will be at kris's most likely and rich has his kid this weekend.

[cwspellowe]

Either way its going to be a bitch in the limited 205 space.

Crank pump cam I guess. As we did it the opposite way.

^^There's the problem then.

I'll echo what Ruan said. It's a bit of a wiggle getting it taught between the pump and cam, you have to almost stretch it to get it on the teeth. It should be quite firm to twist 90 degrees, like you can do it but it takes a bit of effort. You know you've got it right though when you pull the belt from pump to cam and it only just reaches a tooth, then use a spanner on the pulley to turn it ever so slightly to get the belt over the tooth.

Lock the flywheel with a (iirc?) 6mm allen key, not just anything that fits the hole (giggidy) and lock the cam and pump with decent length M8 bolts and wind them in til they hold the pulley tight with no wobble.

[Dave]

no matter how small your crank lock bolt is, there isnt enough movement to get it a tooth out! sounds like youve timed things up in the wrong order.

[darrenjlobb]

What Dave said is true ^^

The key thing is to keep it tight, even if your slopped right over no the crank with a needle in the lock hole, its still not enough to get an extra tooth over the pump, so still ends up right, just pulls sqaure when you tensioner the tensioner...

After all this tho, surely you have already locked the crank to 100% confirm the cam AND pump line up?

[ginge191]

After all this tho, surely you have already locked the crank to 100% confirm the cam AND pump line up?

Yep;

Went on the car this morning, only had a short time, so locked the fly, checked the timing and seems pretty spot on to me.

I've got three videos.
First show the locked crank and the fuel/cam pulleys lining up nicely.





Second video shows the amount of play i have in the locking key (not that it makes a HUGE amount of difference.

[video=youtube]www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzRNSx8bhKY [/video]

And thirdly the lucas bracket. I've got a bosch bracket which can go on, tempted to change it over if anyone thinks it would make any difference

[darrenjlobb]

Have you acaully SCREWED in the bolts? Just looking from an angle like that isnt gunna tell you if its in / not....

And yes its mounted right, theres no differences between brackets, just move studs accordingly.

[ginge191]

I didn't screw any in.

would the slightest of mm difference have an effect such as this (smoking)?

---

screw; i'll redo the timing to a T this time, get it TIIIGHT!

Think rich 306 said he was going to pop over in the week, give me some muscle help!

[darrenjlobb]

You dont need to RE DO IT, just lock it as you have, and physically ensure the bolts will thread in, if they DO, then your timing is RIGHT and its NOT your problem.

[ginge191]

Gotcha!

I've got to head out now, but i'll have a go later Thanks!

[Dave]

err I think your cam is slightly retarded there.... I think you need to use the timing holes how they're supposed to be used...
If this is how you've been timing your belts up all this time I think you should not be doing car mechanics. This is 1000% where your problem lies, due to it never actually being timed up.... with any timing pins.... when your tighten the belt its just pulling your cam and/or pump out, so your a tooth out on your cam causing your horrendous misfire/inability to rev properly - you need to put the pins in again...

[Ruan]

A tooth out will still almost enable you to get the lock pins in - just on the piss...

You need to be 1000% it's completely TIGHT and it's not stressing the pins.

As Dave said, looks like the cam is retarded.

[ginge191]

err I think your cam is slightly retarded there.... I think you need to use the timing holes how they're supposed to be used...
If this is how you've been timing your belts up all this time I think you should not be doing car mechanics. This is 1000% where your problem lies, due to it never actually being timed up.... with any timing pins.... when your tighten the belt its just pulling your cam and/or pump out, so your a tooth out on your cam causing your horrendous misfire/inability to rev properly - you need to put the pins in again...

/facepalm
Ofcourse I locked the pulleys when i done the belt; I was referring in Darren's post about locking the pulleys when I checked the timing as you can see in the first video

A tooth out will still almost enable you to get the lock pins in - just on the piss...

You need to be 1000% it's completely TIGHT and it's not stressing the pins.

As Dave said, looks like the cam is retarded.

What's the easiest way to fix this? Cambelt again!

[Ruan]

Yeah, but the point is, even though it's locked in the fly, you cannot EXACTLY see if the pins go in perfectly straight...

IMHO take the cambelt off and do it again properly...

I assume you changed the pins in the pump bracket... Remember there's no such thing as a "Lucas" or a "Bosch" bracket - they're the same item, just pins in a different place..

[darrenjlobb]

YOU DONT NEED TO TAKE IT OFF UNLESS ITS OUT OF TIME!!!

OMG I cant believe how over complicated this is..

1 - LOCK the flywheel as you have, use slightly bigger allen if you want things to be exact
2 - Get yourself lock bolts
3 - Thread single bolt in cam by hand, bolt should catch, and screw in at least 5 full turns
4 - Do same for BOTH pump bolts

If all bolts thread in (IE sqaure and not trying to cross thread) then your timing is spot on, and you DO NOT need to rip it apart, the problem lies elsewhere, how ever, if you cant get the bolts to catch, then your most likely a tooth out, in which case, RE DO the timing, keeping belt tight as about 5 people have already explained...

[ginge191]

Ok.

Timing checked, was about by what seemed to be the space of one tooth.

Redone the cambelt, absolutely precise with it, blead the injectors, started up - dead battery

Out come the leads; start her up, and boom! Clean running car, take it out for a drive NO smoke, NO derv (no lda/IC connected), small amount of boost but it;s running!

IC in the post, new rad to fit on, then time for a longer drive.


THE CHALLENGE IS BACK ON!

[darrenjlobb]

So the timing was out...like everyones been saying since day 1....lol....

[ginge191]

So the timing was out...like everyones been saying since day 1....lol....

Amongst injectors?, correct fuel lines?, bent valves? Yes, the timing was the culprit.

At least it's running now

[darrenjlobb]

Generally speaking, timing is always the issue when people first start working on xud's, Cant tell you how many times ive seen people do an XU motor first time and get them a tooth out....Yes its like 6 years ago now, but even I did it first time i did a belt on one! Soon realised tho by re checking the lock points

[ginge191]

I know what you mean; TBH im 'chuffed' with myself, getting this far, seeing as mechancial knowledge is limited, as are tools and the experience is near enough basic. Having it running is the best feeling ever! We all learn/start somewhere, 6 years ago for yourself, this month for me

[Rich306]

Thanks to me for helping :p

[ginge191]

Thanks to me for helping :p

By wanting to lock the flywheel with a GTI locking key

But yes, thanks for the help!