cone angle plane angle injection angle help

[bashbarnard]

I have done A lot of research on this and have spoken to various people so i thought i would put a thread up for some help. Basically we all know we struggle with the hdi injector upgrades. Most know im struggling getting some injector nozzles for my M-tdi build. I have some vw ones sitting here that are
 DSLA 150P 357
now the dsla refers to the orifice size the P stands for needle type. in this case 4mm and the first three numbers are the spray angle. 
landrover ones im currently running are DSLA 145p 355 so the same size and needle type as the hdi nozzles just the incorrect spray angle 
hdi ones are DSLA p142 1474 

So my theroy is that the hdi nozzles will fit directly onto the 300 tdi injectors. Which they do. i have tried. however due to just wanting to get it fired up i was unsure as they came off a higher pressure injection system. 

im not after a Fast motor Atm just a good increase from standard and safe for now untill i get chance to go further. 

I also know the plane angle of the hdi but cant put it to any use as i have nothing to compare it against in order to match up anything. This is where i require some help. I would like someone to explain cone angle and spray angle to me in a little depth. with drawings/diagrams if possible. 
the maths involved to compare the injectors against my engine 
And last but not least the Dam plane angle of the vw ahu engine. because for love nor money i cant find it. 

any help will be appreciated however small and hopefully we can get some stuff up on this forum that will help further understand in the future for others. 

[pug306driver]

pintle nozzeles or multihole.......

[toseland]

I would give you lots of info about it and some things... but


http://306oc.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?...#pid176502


Mr Lobb, the XUD god does it beautifully on this very forum my good friend... have a read..


in essence, without reading, the cone angle is the angle of the cone at the top by the nozzle hole, and the plane angle is the angle at which this cone is produced in relation to the flat face of the injector nozzle itself..

i

[Poodle]

Not quite Toseland lol. Sorry Bash, was going to reply and forgot.

Cone angle and spray angle are the same thing, denoted in the injector part number. Plane angle is simply the angle the injector sits in the head. Or at least that's how i understand it in relation to cr injectors, as ever i expect someone will be along shortly to explain why i am wrong.

[Jonny81191]

The cone angle is the bit that's easy to find out (as said, it's in the part number). It's the angle of the "cone" of fuel that is produced by the injector. Plane angle (the angle the injector is mounted in the head) is what we struggle with for HDi's, as most of the bigger nozzles are from 16v engines and therefore have a 0 degree plane angle and are not suitable. It's also difficult to find data for, unless you have a head to measure up.

Then we run into bigger issues. Due to the plane angle meaning the cone is offset to hit the piston bowl, the injector nozzle must also sit at the correct rotation angle in the head, otherwise the fuel will miss the piston bowl and cause poor running, melt the pistons, glaze the bores etc., depending on how badly it's out.

[darrenjlobb]

Its worth noting that in reality, you can get away with murder with angles until you start really pushing the motor / boost / egts,but either way, I wouldnt run it unless it was "correct" or at least, correct enough.....

[toseland]

Not quite Toseland lol. Sorry Bash, was going to reply and forgot.

Cone angle and spray angle are the same thing, denoted in the injector part number. Plane angle is simply the angle the injector sits in the head. Or at least that's how i understand it in relation to cr injectors, as ever i expect someone will be along shortly to explain why i am wrong.

That's what I said lol,    the plane angle being the angle of the direction of spray in relation to the way the  injector is pointing.. it's denoted by the injector not by the way it sits, so for the sake of arguement if the I jector was sat perpendicular to the head, 0degrees would be coming out straight, changing the plane angle changes the direction the fuel is spraying in..  changes to the cone angle change the shape of the cone itself (how flat, or thin it is..) a 0degrees cone angle would be a single jet of fuel.. 180degrees in theory would be flat out of each side of the injector like those silly water fountain things that make a ball of water

[bashbarnard]

Well i think the land rover injectors that i was using were 144 spray and 10 degree plane. Though the rotation is a little off and i am yet to figure out how to get it to rotate to be almost there. It made good power as it was. I also looked at some vw nozzles that were pretty close as well.

---

Turns out i understood more than i though as well which is good.

[Poodle]

I must be misreading your posts Toseland, sorry.

Yeah it's not too bad to get your head around, it's just finding the information, as you're discovering lol. Am i right in thinking there is a locating dowel/s in the nozzle? Perhaps a case of getting a machine shop to redrill them for you, i'd imagine they're a bit hard for normal drill bits.

[bashbarnard]

Yeah there is locating dowels on the nozzles. Which again makes this job even more difficult. Ideally you want to shim the first stage of the injector to pop test it on a bench and actually see what its doing.

[toseland]

that would be ideal... but bear in mind as Darren says the dynamics of the spray become very important when yuou start to get bigger numbers..

specifically the HDi injectors are designed to desposit the fuel in the recess in the piston.. if you start to get detonation or the beginings of detonation outside of this then you will start to crack pistons because of the unequal forces..

the plane angle is vitally important in tuning to higher levels, moreso i would say than the cone angle

[bashbarnard]

Completely agree. But most. Not all, probably wont crack the 200bhp and will have an relatively easy running setup for cheap. I threw mine together for £130 cheaper than some remaps.