05-11-2012, 06:13 PM
As above... any knowledge?
306 Passive rear wheel steering
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05-11-2012, 06:13 PM
As above... any knowledge?
05-11-2012, 06:30 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steering#Pa...l_steering
Other than that, what did you want to know about it?
05-11-2012, 06:33 PM
Basically because of the torsion bars
If you want to get rid of it and make the back a little more stable and predictable on the edge then solid rear beam mounts Aparently help it/ get rid of it
05-11-2012, 06:39 PM
Hmm interesting stuff, never heard of passive steering.
Does this mean that all torsion bar'd vehicles have passive rear wheel steering given the way the lateral forces impact on the rear suspension setup??
Diablo Hdi Dturbo and 205 1.9 project - it lives!
05-11-2012, 06:44 PM
(05-11-2012, 06:39 PM)ginge191 Wrote: Hmm interesting stuff, never heard of passive steering. As far as I understand it, yes. It's the way the bars act under force that cause them to move.
05-11-2012, 06:46 PM
Nope. Nothing to do with the torsion bars, it's the beam mounts and to a lesser extent, flex in the trailing arms
hmm surely a hell of a lot of lateral force is needed to create a movement in the arms (i assume it's the arms which move?)
(05-11-2012, 06:46 PM)Rippthrough Wrote: Nope. Nothing to do with the torsion bars, it's the beam mounts and to a lesser extent, flex in the trailing arms How to the beams allow a change of direction of the wheels, from just lateral forces
Diablo Hdi Dturbo and 205 1.9 project - it lives!
05-11-2012, 06:50 PM
It's mainly just the whole beam setup flexing on the rubber mounts
Member of the 99% warning or you're nothing club
05-11-2012, 06:58 PM
It must be to do with the torsion bars because as the trailing arm twists on the shaft the torsion bar moves from horisontal to diagonal meaning that the horizontal distance between its ends changes and this pulls on the trailing arm causing it to toe in/out slightly giving the passive rear wheel steering.
05-11-2012, 07:08 PM
Pretty sure it's to do with the standard toe in of the trailing arms (GTI6) as weights shifted under heavy cornering it acts as a steer as one wheels up in the air/not doing much. I'm not very technical but that's what I think anywhoo.
Stage 2 XUD Sedan
05-11-2012, 07:22 PM
(This post was last modified: 05-11-2012, 07:23 PM by Rippthrough.)
Quote:How to the beams allow a change of direction of the wheels, from just lateral forces The whole beam pivots around the front mounts, hence the big voids in the rear mounts to allow them to move sideways as it pivots, and the voids in the front bushes.
05-11-2012, 07:24 PM
05-11-2012, 07:37 PM
rubber mounts=movement...............as easy as that.
05-11-2012, 10:23 PM
(05-11-2012, 07:24 PM)Dum-Dum Wrote:(05-11-2012, 07:22 PM)Rippthrough Wrote: The whole beam pivots around the front mounts, hence the big voids in the rear mounts to allow them to move sideways.Yeah that makes sense but surely although thats where they move its caused by the effective shortening of the TBs No, it's from the lateral torque generated at the contact patch.
06-11-2012, 08:20 AM
The TBs would shorten at the same rate at opposite points on the beam, so any pulling in one did would be counteracted by the other doing the same thing on the other side.
It's nothing to do with toe settings or the suspension type, did anybody else actually read that link that burnmw posted? Listen to Ripp, he knows what he's talking about, everyone else is just guessing.
06-11-2012, 09:45 AM
Thanks for the info guys! x
06-11-2012, 10:10 AM
That's why 306s and 205s have their lovely tuck in under hard cornering and also why when provoked they'll go into oversteer as the rear end is also wanting to follow the corner...
And yeah, its simply the mounts being able to move, that's why cheap shit rear beam mounts just end up failing and sending you into a ditch... Also why when they wear, the beam can flap all over the place, causing funky as handling characteristics....
06-11-2012, 10:18 AM
Is looking forward to solid rear beam mounts even more!
06-11-2012, 11:53 AM
I like passive rear steering when it's on my side, not when it isn't, though!
06-11-2012, 03:55 PM
There's still a small amount even with solid mounts from the flex in the arms. But at least there's less chance of those getting fooked and making the back end wander around...
06-11-2012, 04:37 PM
So; if the rubber mounts allow movement in the beam and thus encourage passive rear wheel stearing, why would you want to involve solid mounts? surely this would discourage passive rear wheel steering and chuck the rear end out?
Diablo Hdi Dturbo and 205 1.9 project - it lives!
06-11-2012, 04:50 PM
(06-11-2012, 04:37 PM)ginge191 Wrote: So; if the rubber mounts allow movement in the beam and thus encourage passive rear wheel stearing, why would you want to involve solid mounts? surely this would discourage passive rear wheel steering and chuck the rear end out? it makes the car much more predictable on the limit with solid mounts but in turn, you loose a bit of comfort and increased road noise. Not much though.
Team Eaton
1999 China Blue 306 GTi6 - Eaton Supercharged - 214.5bhp 181lbft
06-11-2012, 07:17 PM
(06-11-2012, 04:37 PM)ginge191 Wrote: So; if the rubber mounts allow movement in the beam and thus encourage passive rear wheel stearing, why would you want to involve solid mounts? surely this would discourage passive rear wheel steering and chuck the rear end out? The passive steering steers the other way to what you are thinking...
06-11-2012, 11:47 PM
people ain't half the fun of the 306 being the way it handles?
by putting in solid mounts IMO you make the car boring like a focus. indeed the focus may out handle it but it's nowhere near as fun to drive as a 306....... And when you think about it how much did honda put into r&d on the rear wheel steering prelude and how much fun was that to drive!
Don't worry about what I'm doing, I want you to worry about what you're doing
07-11-2012, 01:13 AM
If you're putting more loading through the mounts than originally intended it's not a bad idea to stiffen it up somewhat to compensate. At the minute the easy way is completely solid mounts.
07-11-2012, 01:22 AM
(This post was last modified: 07-11-2012, 01:32 AM by Jenkosowls.)
stiffen the front up and see how fun the rear is then.... not very even at low speeds the back just wants to keep going. and as ripp says it doesnt steer the way you think it would. ever seen a 306 rolled over and thought he must have been giving it some? below 30 is enough to roll one with a good yank of the wheel
Perv 106 1.4 xs First Pug Love - Scrapped
Perv 306 1.6 5 Door Hore - Sold 110bhp 207 Hdi Sport - Used as a Brake 173bhp T25 Ph1 Diablo Dturbo - Scrapped Thirsty Bitch Volvo 850 Estate - Sold 51bhp Berlingo Nad DT Van - Sold Slow as f*ck Dispatch Work Horse www.prestige-auto-care.co.uk
07-11-2012, 01:37 AM
You'd be surprised how little speed you need to roll a car tbh!
07-11-2012, 07:28 AM
07-11-2012, 09:44 AM
i've driven a multitude of cars and it's all about finding the balance of the car. I learnt to drive in a triumph dolomite so that should show how long i been driving lol.
All i'm saying is my definition of fun in a 306 means to leave the passive wheel steering as it's fun stepping over the limit and having the ability to correct yourself.......
Don't worry about what I'm doing, I want you to worry about what you're doing
07-11-2012, 11:56 AM
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