Accord Aerodeck XUDT

[nominous]

This weekend my passat went back on the road and the 306 took a spot on the retirement driveway.
The poor bugger has been getting flogged as a daily the past few months but the lack of heaters has been rather uncomfortable and thank god I've finally sorted the passat just as the really cold weather starts
So till this project is finished or meets a major headache, I'll be driving the passat.


On the 306 the IP is leaking a little, the crank?? is leaking oil too now as well. It's a PITA on veg in the morning and either the HG is gone, or there is an air leak that wont come out.
The matrix went and the previous owner bypassed it. Having read a thread here on flow through the matrix I reduced the size of the bypass significantly to hopefully help it out. it uses a little water and pressurises the heck out of the coolant system. But it hasn't gotten any wore since I bought it so I'll find out eventually when the engine (or a spare) is torn down.

So. I wanted a Honda turbo diesel for quite a while.
Why ? I like Honda's.

I was going to convert a CRX to TD but failed to find the right donor car, then bought a "good one" fell out of love with it and sold it.
But at one point realised that it would be epic as a daily driver but no use for the family.
Then I had a civic saloon (sedan) kicking around as it came back to me from a loan to family, but really I needed an estate.
Sold the sedan couple of weekends ago as it happens.
Then I remembered the Accord Aerodeck. Standard it comes with a large 2.2 4 pot in this trim, tho it's as smooth as a V6. Featuring things such as active engine mounts and balancer shafts. Leather interior, cruise, electric driver seat, etc.
Generally it's overlooked by the Euro Honda community as it's a large capacity engine, and drinks heavily but many are modded in the USA.

Whilst in the same years (94-98) Honda made the Accord saloon with a rare diesel, it's actually a Rover lump (and the Rover 600 is basically an Accord or vice versa) and the saloon is a completely different car despite being the same name and year.
The aerodeck designed and built in the USA ! - it's got USA quirks.
The saloon was a Rover/Honda partnership.

Since I run veg oil, the later accords with the CDTI engine I didn't want to touch. They can be picky about diesel fuel. Plus they are too small in the back end for load capacity.
So I figured I'd fit the best mech TD engine I could find to the accord.
Tom's antics in his ZX more than convinced me that PSA power was the way forward.


So yes, I'm going to try and fit a XUD into a Honda Accord Aerodeck.


So here we sit today:



Driveway cleared of other cars, all projects out of the way (bar one on the house) and ready to take the engine and box out of the accord.
306 in the background looking sorry for itself, hopefully I'll be offering it's engine up to the accord some time over xmas.
Measurements so far suggest that it should fit, but I generally find you've got to try it to find out for sure. Things can be moved, cut, bent or rebuilt if tis' snug.
The point of no return is when I have to remove the engine mounts from the accord to get the XUD engine in the bay. I'm hoping I can get it in at a jaunty angle and prove there is room, else I'll drill the spot welds off in case they need to go back on again to put the accord back to stock

I expect with several other commitments and another Honda project on going, I'll be ready for the road in May with a fairly stock setup (just engine swap, stock wheels, suspension, brakes, etc)

FMIC is required but loads of room. Stock rad is huge, will fit a header tank high up - have space.
PAS is easy, A/C is going to be more tricky but I want A/C.
I believe the turbo will need to go over the gearbox. If it doesn't then I'll keep the T2 that is fitted for now where it is.
If it does then I'll just go straight to having a VNT and sort out the aurduino.
Wiring should be straight forward. Imobilisor stuff needs to come out. Accord clocks will be used. Need electronic speed reader.
This is an auto so have to convert to manual. Luckily the firewall is pre marked uses prelude parts. but I need a cable shifter and hyrdo clutch setup on the gearbox.
Biggest worry is the driveshafts, mainly cos I've never done a hybrid marque drive shaft previously (hybrid Honda sure...).


The intention is that this will replace the passat as the daily driver.
It's going to be sensible power, usable and reliable. Not balls out. 20K miles /year.
I might keep a 306 around as a backup when that day comes.

[Eeyore]

Interesting project! Good luck! might as well 2.1 it!

[zx_volcane]

Now this is a fun project, will be keeping an eye on it

[nominous]

Thanks.
I didn't got for a 2.1 because of the height.
I had a big concern over that; another recent thread talks about 38mm clearance between a current engine and the underside of the bonnet not being enough.
Since I couldn't find a 2.1 locally to measure up, but did find the 1.8 and 1.9 I went with the XUD and expect that I'll have poor clearance. Hence FMIC is needed and maybe a custom intake to the side.
The accord engine bay is VERY deep, but not tall and the bonnet rake isn't great in the location of the LDA on the IP.

If it works out and then I do find clearance, the plan was to just stick the whole 306 swap back into the 306 and go source a 405 etc with the XUD11 and likely benefit from the clutch/shifter setup too.
I would rather have the 2.1 truth be told.

[procta]

be an interesting one to do mind, the Rover 600/accord, you could have done it quite easy, sort a rover 600 derv and drop the full works into the accord.

[nominous]

be an interesting one to do mind, the Rover 600/accord, you could have done it quite easy, sort a rover 600 derv and drop the full works into the accord.

Nope. Covered that
The aerodeck isn't the same as the 600/accord saloon.
Wings, bonnets, headlights, doors, etc, don't swap between them.

Now chances are that would fit, with trimming of engine mounts and things, but it's:
1) too easy
2) not as good of an engine as the XUD for tuning*
3) it's a DI and I've had my "fun" of DI's on veg (passat) and want to go back to IDI
4) Not as easy to get hold of as a XUD #


* as in: not seen many high power ones so don't really know for sure but don't want to be the first to find out either.
# as in: there are loads of XUD's around here in scrappies and not that many in comparison L series in my experience.

[procta]

L series engines id have thought would be a bit thin on the ground anyway, like the early rovers.
what about wiring?

[Piggy]

Be watching this!

[nominous]

what about wiring?

Hondas have most wires colour coded for the function and don't reuse codes in the same area.
I've sadly pretty much memorised all the colour codes.

Am more worried about the XUD wiring. But really, what is there ?
Stop solenoid, glows, temp sensors, oil light, alternator. erm...

[procta]

no harm in been clued up on wiring, as that will help you for diagnostics,
helps been your own support, as I cannot rely on the rover info, too much bum info man.

[nominous]

Since everyone be hating on diesels, I call this serendipity:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1078...ed-is-3000

[Poodle]

Hahaha like it. Next step in the project?

[nominous]

Will get there eventually.
No, really, I think one day (it may be a couple of years) it's the logical thing to do.

If the engine swap works out, I plan to keep the car, get it resprayed etc and spend quite a bit on it.

[nominous]

Nothing new to add so far...
Saturday was ridiculously cold. I took down the temp cover in front of the garage but measuring the portable garage at 6m x 3.3m it's too big to go in front.
So I'll probs have to tie it back to 5M and then move the wheelie bins to somewhere else.
And when I start moving cars around, I'd have to take the thing down too.
So actually I'll end up taking the engine out of the pug first, as it's easier to do that then put up the garage and take the one out the accord.
The opposite way around to how I was going to tackle it.


Passat passed MOT no advisories, but I need to change the thermostat.
I fitted the radio from he pug as it was blue/red lit like the VW look, but broke and had to fix the aerial lead in the process.
But I can detax the pug and kiss it RIP farewell for the moment.

Cleared out some space in the garage for engine storage through hacking apart an old freezer which is to become a dehumidifier later...
And figured that the reason my carcoon was deflating the inner skin is that I've been using it wrong for the last few years. Tho it seemed to work fine. Who knew (carcoon tech help as it happens...) ??

[7057sam]

This sounds like a great idea for a project,watching very closely

Have you De taxed a car with the new system as I was wondering how quick you get you refund back,the old system was very slow.

[nominous]

Not yet. Didn't do it last night. Marked up my hand to remember
I'll let you know.

It was nice and easy taxing the replacement. I figured it would be a trauma but they don't check for insurance any more just MOT. So that's good. Can get insured on the same day as the tax and don't have to wait for mid to catch up. My insurance co are utterly terrible at putting things on MID. The 306 wasn't on mid from Aug to Nov !!

[nominous]

So I sorn'd the 306 on the 16th and teh cheque arrived on the 19th with a 2nd class mark on it. Not bad !!

Found some time over the past couple of days on the wind down to crack on with this. Stage 1

No front end.
Tried to remove the 4 13mm bolts, couldn't find the bottom two. Took the head lights out (not hard) and then after much swearing and removing teh bumper on the pass side I found them. Well hidden. Least I know now tho eh




I thought I would not enjoy doing this, but it's actually been far easier than I thought it would be.
Example, getting the driveshafts out. Whilst the drv side is mildy irritating for the two bearing retainer bolts, as least there is far less to undo the suspension to get them out compared to my hondas which need the shock removing then the top of teh suspension dislocating. Joys of double wishbone
So getting the engine out wasn't too bad. Took about 40 mins from where I left it in the above pic.
Got away with doing it this morning after the wee one went down for a nap.

Lift ready


Engine out


Engine Mobile


So yeah, I guess if you are blowing them up pushing the limits, swapping in a new engine isn't the end of the world really.

Observations and a couple of questions...

Tiny Turbo - T2 so small isn't it.
Will have to do something about that as I'm pretty sure without putting it in the accord that the turbo aint gonna work there, or certainly the DP will need changing for custom.


Gearbox Mount
Has anyone sealed this up so that it's not U shaped? Does the vibration increase massively ??
The rear lower one also seemed awfully soft.

Follow up question on gearbox mounts, if I have the single bolt out I noticed to the left of the (looking from the front) that there is a second hole. Does anyone know what application both holes are used for ?
I'm thinking for my mounts taking the single bolt out and making up a mount that bolts to both holes will work better. Just curious what it's used for since it's so handy


Honda shaft along side the 306 shaft from the opposite side.
They are about the same overall length (bearing in mind compression of suspension and position of the spiders).
The other longer 306 shaft is also about the same size as the honda pass shaft & intermediate combo.
The problem ??
Honda shaft is 26 spline.
306 shaft is 25 spline.

*&(%*^$%*^$%"$^*%$"
Does anyone know if there is a shaft from the PSA world with 26 splines on the hub end please ? This would save quite a bit of work making a hybrid I think as the lengths are close enough to "just work" !!



Gunk & top bolt
This engine is filthy
Awful lot of burnt on veg is covering it all over.
The chassis is never gonna rust... so a donor for someone ??
Doesn't help that the valve cover bolt was also this loose.

No rush to clean the engine. I'm leaving it alone for now to get things working. Beautification can come later with a tear down

Top coolant hoses.
During removing bits I noted two small bore coolant pipes on the top of the engine.
Is this the highest point in the head and where we'd see airlocks ?
I have room in the accord for a header tank above the engine height. So these going into that would hopefully stop airlocks ?

That would be teh one on teh far right of this pic just behind the fuel filter housing, and the other on the left just under the clip that the intercooler sits on top of.


The heater on this had died and the hoses were linked. I crushed that link down to narrow it when I got it but it pressurised so suspect the HG may be gone.
The hose from the thermostat had foam in it ! and I guess very little water.
I'm floored at the amount of water pipes running from teh back of teh block to the front or the radiator.
I haven't taken much of a look at the coolant system yet, but it seems a bit of a mess. Anyone done any work in this area to make more sense of it at all ? I'm going to see about modifying things here to give me some more room. Where things are coming from and going to. I'll be running an accord rad and it only has one entry and exit so I have to do something on this.


Hopefully before new years I'll have the engine out of the accord. Weather permitting. Says it's gonna snow tomorrow....

Merry xmas

[Paul_13]

I'm wondering if you could knock the outer CV's off and swap them

[procta]

looking good there fella, progress with the donor car! too me and my dad 5 hrs to an engine change, We dropped the engine out from under the shells, as those are fitted the subframes.
fun and games will start when you have to fit the bugger! But I tell you this, hearing a engine conversion fire into life for you for the 1st time is a right buzz! The same thing goes with a Re shell.
As for the drive shaft side of it, see if what paul says will work, if not see if you can get them made up.

[nominous]

The shafts look to be the same thickness. Whilst I'm unlucky with the outer CV''s I'm hopeful that the spiders will swap over (inner or outer) and I can make something from it.
Else it will have to be a cut and weld job - which I'd rather avoid as it'll be more costly.

Brief measure up now I have bits I can work with, the accord looks wider by 30mm than the 306 bay. But it narrows as it goes back. It might be tight but I'm hopeful now I've got this one out

[Piggy]

£50-70 a shaft to have them made pal

[procta]

The shafts look to be the same thickness. Whilst I'm unlucky with the outer CV''s I'm hopeful that the spiders will swap over (inner or outer) and I can make something from it.
Else it will have to be a cut and weld job - which I'd rather avoid as it'll be more costly.

Brief measure up now I have bits I can work with, the accord looks wider by 30mm than the 306 bay. But it narrows as it goes back. It might be tight but I'm hopeful now I've got this one out

if you can keep things the same, Less question marks for faults and problems try to do so, My metro is mainly elise/mgf under the bonnet, So I just buy either lotus elise or MGF depending on what it I need. I treat the engine like a lotus Elise unit, as it did come from one originally, the suspension setup I have kept as a metro gta/gti as that was what my car was, even though its got a 1.1s body now.

[mr_fish]

With regards to your gearbox mount and cooling system queries, have a look in my project thread. I had similar experiences for the 206.

Nice work though, will be an interesting combo when you put it together.

[nominous]

£50-70 a shaft to have them made pal

Links would be appreciated I will get back to your email. It's in the inbox!!

With regards to your gearbox mount and cooling system queries, have a look in my project thread. I had similar experiences for the 206.

I took a quick looks thanks. Need to spend some more time looking at it as I can see it being worthwhile.

I've got an option on a bent valve Fiat Ducatto!??! which is PSA HDI I'm told.
I'm wondering if the box from that is going to fit as it should all be rather cheap and will be cable/hydro setup.
Rods too...

Nice bodgery on the lower mount. It's looking like for me I'll have to figure something else out as there would be a need for a 1ft mount extension and no where to bolt it to.
It doesn't make sense. Pics to follow....


Also learnt something about the shafts.
I forgot that some of the bigger engines in the Hondas had larger shafts.
I have to change the outer CV's if nothing else cos the Honda and PUG shafts above both fit into the holes on the accord hubs and spin freely
So that question above is now moot.

[nominous]

Had a bit of illness over xmas. Typical. I seem to get it every year and not drink related.
Still new years resolution of no alcohol means more time for working on cars....

Easy come.... easy go....


Bless Honda for designing teh bonnet to make engine swaps easier

Enough space ??


Worth a shot:





Trying again after removing more bits - the brace under the sump hits and the rear mount was in the way too (no surprise, I was just too eager)
Note the recess for the Honda diff on the left side of the cross member. I will have to replicate this on the right side to clear the PUG box.


Will need to chop this off and move the engine/box over about 20mm to the left so it's in teh middle of teh bay.


Clearance height wise looks good, bear in mind it needs to be tilted backwards a few degrees. I couldn't do this on the crane at the time, but it needs to happen to replicate the PUG bay.
Need to buy some bits to help mock that up.


Test fit of the drive shaft as they are smaller enough to fit through the Accord hubs. I will need to go for custom shafts as the accord is a single long shaft from pass side to gearbox. Some Hondas are, some aren't. Meh, unlucky and also surprised this one doesn't have a 1/2 shaft.



Shot of teh biggest issue. The turbo needs to go through this rear cross member and it cannot as the steering rack is there.
I figured this was going to be a problem, but on initial fit it was looking good and I was dumb enough to get my hopes up - till I remember I forgot to tilt the engine backwards doh!

So deffo need turbo over the gearbox.
But there is so much space in the bay left over that I should be able to go for the swirl pot and full size battery in the bay plus room to swing a cat.

A shot of the engine mount in teh last pic.
Active engine mount. Gets firmer controlled by the ECU in relation to engine speed and load to make teh ride more comfortable.
I'm going to see if I can find a way to reuse this...

As a lower mount might be difficult, with the turbo removed I'll investigate options on a rear upper mount... I vaguely heard something about a drive shaft holder of a difference design that didn't have the lower mount integral ??

Issues:

1) gearbox - hydro/cables - but I knew this of course.
2) custom shafts - I'll strip the boots off and check, but I'm pretty sure I've got length issues anyway and would need to find another Honda drv side shaft regardless.
3) turbo re-routing and god only knows where/how to run the downpipe...
4) lower mount / rear mount - cannot easily replicate PUG setup
5) AUX setup. cannot run the PAS pump in it's stock location. needs to be higher up. Plus need to add/run A/C pump too.

Any hints and tips on the last item most welcome please. I think the PH2 with A/C have a different setup is that right ?
There is loads of room in front of the engine to accommodate.
http://306oc.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?tid=25747
So the PAS pump is in the same/similar location.
Well, Anyone got a A/C pump and bracket? - hoses ideally too.


I'll have to run a PUG A/C compressor I think, well I need to check engine rotation first, but either way I need new lines making up (easy enough).
I've left teh Honda pump connected and out of teh way so can worry about it eventually. So much room in the front of the bay. - you can barely see it in teh top shot in front of teh front cross member!!
Unfortunately all the room is in teh front of teh bay. If the turbo had been on the front of teh engine I'd be laughing. I could stick 4 of them in front of it...
With the engine tilted backwards it's very tight behind it. Least there wont be any weight in front of teh wheels

PAS I might as well just get a new high pressure line made from teh PUG pump to the rack. The Honda pump is on the right side of teh engine, the pug on the left, but teh rack input is on the left, so it'd be silly to extend teh Honda one. Just start over.

Given the size of the engine and box that came out, even if it's mainly ally (ally block) I think I've saved some weight here too with this swap.
Always a good thing.
I'll take a bet with myself that it's around 20Kg less weight saved. Going to borrow another scale so I can weigh in both swaps and see the difference.

---

Answering own question...

[nominous]

Bought a GT5052V, Volvo D5 jobbie. Excited

[procta]

getting there fella!

[7057sam]

Definitely getting there

Well done so far mate

[nominous]

Thought I'd take a look at shafts last night.
The Pug ones seem not quite long enough so figured I'd take the inners apart:



Surprises (for me).
The inner CV has a spring in it. This pushes against the shaft. I was wondering WTF is this for ??
Then figured that the part that goes into the gearbox doesn't have any real retention on it.
Honda inner CV's have a clip on the end that locates into the diff and locks in place. To remove them you need to lever them out of the box.
For the PUG it appears to use the spring inside the joint to push the joint into the gearbox and maintain the seal / location.

So that's something else to bear in mind when building them!!



Accord shaft top and pug shaft bottom. From tip to end the accord is longer by about 20mm. That 20mm is needed.
So drum roll, spline count on accord shaft 32, spline count on Pug shaft 34  
They happen to be the same diameter. If I can find a spider/tripod/bearing combination that fits the pug CV with 32 splines this will be piss easy.
The accord has bigger CV joints and thus bigger bearings (diameter). So now I'm looking for smaller joints from mine and others Honda parts to see if we can come up with a combo that works. Honda B or possibly D series stuff will be smaller than the Accord F series. But then they are 30spline, and the legs on the spider may well be smaller dia too This isn't easy...

The bearings on the spider for the pug has separate needles, for the honda they are typically one piece spherical items.
I've not tried the pug needles on the honda spider yet as I have concerns over the way the honda spider is tapered at the end for the needles would be in free space.

[Poodle]

Can't help but think it'd be easiest to sleeve the two together. Could you not turn down the pug shaft on a lathe to match the honda shaft?

EDIT: Sorry, just seen the bit where you say cutting and welding is too expensive, i'll shut up.