Oh great and wise HDI Gurus...

[Poodle]

Very glad to hear it bud, thanks for posting your results.

[Mattinthehat]

Okey dokey

So installed new pump yesterday eve and it started ok several times, this morning took a few attempts but got going, tried some hard acceleration and was ok, then it started to get progressively worse throughout the day to the point of Im now back to square one, when it cut the first time on my way home i was on a flat pulling 3k+ revs in 3rd and it went second time i was on the verge of a hill pulling just less than 2k revs in 4th (i had a bit if extra weight this time) - i managed to bump start it and got home BUT still have the same issues only this time we know it isnt the lp pump....

Going to swap out the relay since i have one see if that makes a difference

Would a compression test help? could it be the head?? also would cleaning the injectors help?

I find it weird how cleaning the fpr sorted it out briefly and changing the lp pump sorted it briefly, it also seems to like starting first thing in the morning with virtually no effort after its been stood all night yet it virtually refuses to start after its been running for a while.....

...any further thoughts?

Cheers

[Niall]

You bought a second hand pump? If so, we don't know its not that really. You don't know what condition it was in on the old car.

[Mattinthehat]

You bought a second hand pump? If so, we don't know its not that really. You don't know what condition it was in on the old car.

yeah cos at the time i couldnt afford to spend £125 for a new one and the guy says it came from a working vehicle...

Could it be ECU maybe?

Just changed the relay too - no change still same probs...

[Niall]

You bought a second hand pump? If so, we don't know its not that really. You don't know what condition it was in on the old car.

yeah cos at the time i couldnt afford to spend £125 for a new one and the guy says it came from a working vehicle...

Could it be ECU maybe?

I don't know of any HDi ECUs giving up but then I'm no where near near a derv expert. ECUs rarely do odd things. Normally they just stop working.

[Ruan]

Don't bother with the ecu or relay... It won't be them tbf...

When you changed the lp pump, was it a new one..?? If it was new, it is the hp pump, but it seems massively dubious that you had horrible lp pump noises, the lp pump stopped, now a new lp pump isn't working also...

Check the wiring to and from...

Does sound like it could be hp pump, but just too coincidental if you had horrible lp pump noises also...

Edit: didn't read above, I'll put money on the replacement pump being shagged too...

[Poodle]

Yeah, as above tbh, I didn't realise you'd changed it for a second-hand pump. You really want to get it on proper live diagnostics somehow mate, there's a bloody good chance you will save yourself money in the long run.

[Mattinthehat]

Yeah im trying to find somewhere that has PP that i can use, all the small garages round me have some other bs that may or may not read the pug and they all want 40+ quid

So one garage suggested it may be 2 separate issues, one may be diesel blowback (or something, basically air getting into the system) for the starting issue and something else for the cutting out so that leads me to stuff that i have changed which would be the fuel filter, could the seal have gone on the filter housing maybe?

Also my crank pulley is absolutely knackered, im replacing this weekend - would that cause any issues??

Also could the start up issue be down to a lazy starter motor?

[toseland]

yes it could.. or a bad earth, check the big earth on the head, gearbox end, is tight


if it was diesel blowby, then he is refering to loss of compression because of shitty fitting rings., and that said compression flowing down the sides of the piston as it forces its way up and.or the charge pops in the cylinder..

if it is, it will be puffing like a chuchu train out of the crank case breather..

[Poodle]

Is the filter housing leaking? If not, the seal is fine. There is no air getting into the system, can we put that one to bed once and for all please, getting sick of explaining it lol.

Starter motors don't really get lazy, if it's slow to crank your battery could be a bit weak and that can stop it from starting - the ecu won't fire the injectors unless it sees adequate voltage.

[Mattinthehat]

Nice one guys, will check the earths and i have a spare battery that was fully charged and working ok on my old pug so will swap them over and see if that makes a difference, tbh the starter motor is sounding a bit weak i put it down to the strain of me trying to start it ok, sometimes it sounds really strong sometimes not so strong if that makes sense..?

So not ECU - will try and get on PP this weekend!

Cheers

[Niall]

Starter motors don't really get lazy, if it's slow to crank your battery could be a bit weak and that can stop it from starting - the ecu won't fire the injectors unless it sees adequate voltage.

I can't speak for all ECUs but most have a working voltage of 8-18v so the first thing to give up working with a flat battery will be the starter won't crank or won't crank fast enough. Most ECUs will not inject though until they see a certain RPM from the engine, in the case of most I've come across this is about 400rpm. Once it sees that, it will switch over to its idle running.
HDi ecu may be completely different but thats my experience of all the ecus I've dealt with in the past.

[Mattinthehat]

Starter motors don't really get lazy, if it's slow to crank your battery could be a bit weak and that can stop it from starting - the ecu won't fire the injectors unless it sees adequate voltage.

I can't speak for all ECUs but most have a working voltage of 8-18v so the first thing to give up working with a flat battery will be the starter won't crank or won't crank fast enough. Most ECUs will not inject though until they see a certain RPM from the engine, in the case of most I've come across this is about 400rpm. Once it sees that, it will switch over to its idle running.
HDi ecu may be completely different but thats my experience of all the ecus I've dealt with in the past.

Ahhh so maybe it could be the battery.... will swap it out see if that makes a difference..

So just been to fetch my new Crank pulley from my local parts place (they love me down there now lol) and just to add to the mix of potential cures.... they did say as my crank pulley is so fubared it maybe this that is causing the start up issue as it will be making the crank sensor move.... will see what its like in an hour or two when i have swapped it out!

[Toms306]

You can check cam/crank synchronisation on pug planet....

Also Niall is right about the ECU needing to see a certain RPM before it'll fire the injectors, I don't know what the actual figure is though.

[Niall]

Starter motors don't really get lazy, if it's slow to crank your battery could be a bit weak and that can stop it from starting - the ecu won't fire the injectors unless it sees adequate voltage.

I can't speak for all ECUs but most have a working voltage of 8-18v so the first thing to give up working with a flat battery will be the starter won't crank or won't crank fast enough. Most ECUs will not inject though until they see a certain RPM from the engine, in the case of most I've come across this is about 400rpm. Once it sees that, it will switch over to its idle running.
HDi ecu may be completely different but thats my experience of all the ecus I've dealt with in the past.

Ahhh so maybe it could be the battery.... will swap it out see if that makes a difference..

So just been to fetch my new Crank pulley from my local parts place (they love me down there now lol) and just to add to the mix of potential cures.... they did say as my crank pulley is so fubared it maybe this that is causing the start up issue as it will be making the crank sensor move.... will see what its like in an hour or two when i have swapped it out!

Utter bollocks mate. Crank sensor is on top of the gearbox and picks up its signal from the flywheel so having a wrecked crank pulley won't make any difference at all in that respect.

[Poodle]

You really seem to have a talent for finding people who spout random bullshit. Bless em, got to laugh eh, Niall's got it.

Didn't know that about the ECU, makes a lot of sense though.

[Uberderv]

Doubt that very much^^^^^ sensor is on the camshaft/cambelt not crank/aux belt. Dodgy starter would affect starting the engine as it requires a certain speed to start.

[Niall]

Doubt that very much^^^^^ sensor is on the camshaft/cambelt not crank/aux belt. Dodgy starter would affect starting the engine as it requires a certain speed to start.

You realise right the aux belt pulley is driven by the crank right? A lot of people use a toothed ring on the aux pulley for crank positioning on aftermarket management.

[Uberderv]

Doubt that very much^^^^^ sensor is on the camshaft/cambelt not crank/aux belt. Dodgy starter would affect starting the engine as it requires a certain speed to start.

You realise right the aux belt pulley is driven by the crank right? A lot of people use a toothed ring on the aux pulley for crank positioning on aftermarket management.

Yup I know, just saying I doubt it would affect it.

[Ruan]

Aux belt won't affect it, at least not on a HDi... We're suggesting all these things, but there's still not a new lift pump gone in!!!

[Mattinthehat]

ok so fitted new crank pulley, and tried to start it and its died battery is out of juice which says to me it wasnt properly charged as a few attempts and it died so could it be the alternator not charging the battery properly? Seems that if the battery was not fully charged the starter motor would take a few attempts to start the engine, as the battery drains it would take more and more attempts draining the battery further and making the issue worse and would also explains Nial's ECU explanation about needing 8-18v to fire the injectors, if the drain on the battery from the starter motor is sufficient to take the ECU below operating voltage then the car would be difficult to start- am i right or what?

Also i left it turning a bit and it spluttered like it was going to fire up but then just kept turning and nothing after that...

So now i have to get a jump or bump it to get it going, very strange how the battery is drained after a few attempts....

Also i checked the fuel pump and its pumping fuel ok so im pretty sure the problem is further up the chain although Ruan would disagree lol!

[Niall]

This is NOT an ECU problem
This is NOT a battery charging issue

Your battery is probably dead because its either old and fooked or you have been starting it lots without taking it for a proper drive to recharge it.

Im not even a diesel person unlike Ruan and Poodle but even i can see here you NEED to get a new LP pump. Not a unknown used one. New.

At 8v, your starter will barely turn over if at all yet your ECU will still be working and looking for that key 400rpm before it starts chucking fuel in.

[Mattinthehat]

ok - you know where i can get a new affordable one?

[Uberderv]

http://www.gsfcarparts.com

http://www.eurocarparts.com

www.ebay.co.uk

Or if you have a butchers through the forum there is an uprated pump available for roughly the same price. Getting it on Peugeot Planet first could save alot of guess work/money.

[Poodle]

If it starts with a jump start that's a clear indication your battery is weak.

To check your battery and alternator: Check the voltage across the terminals with the ignition off, should be ~12.6v. Should see a slight drop as you flick the ignition on, then start the engine and you should see ~14.5v. Fully charge the battery on a charger, then reinstall and see how long it lasts with normal usage, chances are it'll lose charge pretty quick and be unable to start the car again within a couple of days.

[Mattinthehat]

Yep started first time with a jump - heading to get a new battery now and my mate will check the alternator :-)

Ok so battery was checked and was found to be ok and so was the alternator, (results were 14-14.5v on idle and 11-12v when it was switched so within the norm)

Im taking it to a diesel engine expert on Monday eve (friend of a friend) but from the symptoms i have described he thinks its may be crap from the first filter on its way out that has hit the hp pump...

Incidentally I have just found out that if i rev the bollocks of it and red line briefly 2/3 times then switch off it pretty much fires up first time afterwards - someone else (another mechanic) - suggested it may need a higher amp battery..??

I will speak with the expert tomorrow eve if he can sort it then its happy days and im keeping the shed! if not then i will probably break it and buy another one with fewer issues!

[mcglynn]

It wont be a battery. If you have replaced your lift pump and the issue is still there id guess at either;

- A worn HP Pump (r70 pumps can be picked up for £40-£50)
- A dud LP pump replacement, an uprated one can be bought for ~£50 & I done a guide for fitting it somewhere.
- A faulty regulator.

The starting issue wont be your battery, if its charged it will start it, you should know by the sound of it turning over whether it's fast or slow. Slow obviously indicating a flat battery.

Id try someone locals known good lift pump, battery and regulator if you can get access to them then you'll know if its a HP pump issue or not.

[Niall]

I don't see why your just ignoring the advice given to you. Get a new or known working LP pump in there. Not one from Ebay where of course the seller who bought the car, picked it up on a flat bed then broke it is going to say it works perfectly.

[Mattinthehat]

Im not ignoring the advice! I hear what you are saying loud and clear on FM! I wouldnt be bouncing ideas of you guys if i didnt respect your knowledge and experience with these infernal machines!

But im going through process of elimination, i think it strange how it fired up first time from a jump - maybe just coincidence? also bumps first time all the time which means its getting fuel.. another suggestion has been lack of compression - but surely it wouldnt run or would run badly? I have no idea! when i joined this forum i had just bought a HDI and had exactly 0 diesel mechanical knowledge - in a few weeks Im virtually a diesel mechanic lol! (wouldnt quite go that far but i am becoming more at one with my HDI engine)

As Poodle said i need to get the fucker on diags fo sho! I need to know EXACTLY what the issue is but Im stuck between a rock and a hard place atm tho as my laptop is out for repair and the only person near me that has PP and it doesnt work right all garages are wanting 40+ just to hook it up, im willing to spend another 150 on the engine then it becomes financially un-viable and will have to look at buying another which i REALLY dont want to do as i am growing to enjoy this car! and there is a certain sense of satisfaction that goes with sorting your own engine out!

Ill get there eventually then you can all take the piss at the next meet!

[Niall]

Where are you located?