Stage 2 HDI vs GTI6 In Gear

[MY95]

Which would be quicker in 3rd or 4th gear for example?
I would have a guess at HDI
Has it been tried before by anyone on the forum?

[Tom]

Depends if the '6 was up at 5krpm ready to plant it :/

[Toms306]

30-70 in 3rd the HDi will be quicker....

[MY95]

Thought so, wondering whether to stage 2 my hdi and use it as track car or buy a GTI6 purely for a track car in the next few months.

[lewisdmz]

Which would be quicker in 3rd or 4th gear for example?
I would have a guess at HDI
Has it been tried before by anyone on the forum?

Has to be done for mph rather than gear as a hdi in 3rd is going to smash 30 - 70 where as gti will be ready to get the party started at 70 in 3rd.

[Toms306]

Personal preference really. I'd go for a '6 for track use, but others on here would go for the HDi...

[Slam Wagon]

Track use id go for a 6, reliability of a stage 2 would be my concern and you can ra*e the limiter in the 6.

[jammapic]

I've had both. A well tuned HDi will be a lot faster in a specific gear.

That said, if it's a 30-70 and choose any gear you like... A GTi6 will be quicker.

I currently run a cammed and throttle bodied GTi6 with 227hp. Even this, isn't as quick as a HDi in gear...

[Niall]

Depends on the situation really. If its a 30-70 in 3rd, the 6 will be sitting at about 2k at 30 so will be dead slow so the HDI will steam past. If it was to 100, (with a gear change), the GTI would smash it i reckon

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I've had both. A well tuned HDi will be a lot faster in a specific gear.

That said, if it's a 30-70 and choose any gear you like... A GTi6 will be quicker.

I currently run a cammed and throttle bodied GTi6 with 227hp. Even this, isn't as quick as a HDi in gear...

Generally you do have to be in a gear to accelerate James

[C.A.R.]

Have you ever tried to drive a diesel in anger? It just feels wrong! They really don't like revs, and revs are what you want on track. You'll have more fun in a 1.6 on a track day than any diesel (save for some of the more modern diesels with high rev-limiters).

[jammapic]

Depends on the situation really. If its a 30-70 in 3rd, the 6 will be sitting at about 2k at 30 so will be dead slow so the HDI will steam past. If it was to 100, (with a gear change), the GTI would smash it i reckon

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I've had both. A well tuned HDi will be a lot faster in a specific gear.

That said, if it's a 30-70 and choose any gear you like... A GTi6 will be quicker.

I currently run a cammed and throttle bodied GTi6 with 227hp. Even this, isn't as quick as a HDi in gear...

Generally you do have to be in a gear to accelerate James

You know what I mean you tool... In 1 gear then!

:p

[procta]

Have you ever tried to drive a diesel in anger? It just feels wrong! They really don't like revs, and revs are what you want on track. You'll have more fun in a 1.6 on a track day than any diesel (save for some of the more modern diesels with high rev-limiters).

revs C.A.R? you want boost!

[Ruan]

Have you ever tried to drive a diesel in anger? It just feels wrong! They really don't like revs, and revs are what you want on track. You'll have more fun in a 1.6 on a track day than any diesel (save for some of the more modern diesels with high rev-limiters).

Sigh... You've never driven a properly set up diesel, only wanky 5+ year old diesels or stock/stage 1 Hdis.... There's a big difference... Don't knock it until you've tried it, remember I used to own a gti6...

[jammapic]

Have you ever tried to drive a diesel in anger? It just feels wrong! They really don't like revs, and revs are what you want on track. You'll have more fun in a 1.6 on a track day than any diesel (save for some of the more modern diesels with high rev-limiters).

Sigh... You've never driven a properly set up diesel, only wanky 5+ year old diesels or stock/stage 1 Hdis.... There's a big difference... Don't knock it until you've tried it, remember I used to own a gti6...

Totally agree.

I used to love the way my XUD went... on boost and RIPPP. Was great.

I find the GTi-6 so dull until it gets wound up, and then you have to ring its neck, constantly.

[welshpug]

you don't have to wring its neck, unless your cam timing is all to pot, they have more than enough grunt to make decent pace without spending their whole time at 6.5k.

[Dave]

Nothing like hitting the plunger hardcut on an 11mm head with an XUD hitting near on 7k and still producing power.

[jammapic]

Don't get me wrong welshpug, it makes strong torque low down - just with the cams and throttle bodies all the fun is right at the top end.

JP

[Ruan]

The gti6s that have probably 'correct' cam timing don't have the rush at the top end and are just Meh all over... The ones that have 'f*cked' cam timing are great when you simply want to wring it's neck... The torque is OK, but 145lb.ft is never going to blow my skirt up... But 300lb.ft tearing out of a slow corner into a long straight does... That's where gti6s feel so gutless, the gearbox is too long so you end up in first, then you nail the throttle and it spins faster and yes you get going, but as far as I'm concerned, nailing the throttle as the car squirms out of the corner fighting to find traction before going for the next gear and it just keep pulling hard...

Don't get me wrong, fast a roads the gti6 feels sweeter, you can leave it in 3rd/4th and sail along.. But on anything that actually requires slowing down like most UK roads do... Give me something that really scrabbles out of a corner...

[Curt]

A GTi-6 sounds better, therefore it wins.

[welshpug]

I bet the gti6 has 145 lbft for far longer than an XUD has 300 that and the box/clutch/driveshafts wont shit themselves...

[ally406]

Regardless of which is quicker, a petrol can have other advantages around a track. Controlling the attitude of the car with the throttle or balancing the throttle mid corner is so much easier on an NA petrol, and a broad rev range helps and means you aren't grabbing a gear at the wrong time. You're talking stock power versus tuned, when you batter an engine all day reliability is going to be a big factor. Another common problem with turbo diesels is that power can drop off during prolonged flogging, an NA petrol generally returns similar performance lap after lap. I'm talking in general terms and I don't know much about tuned HDI's, but my point is outright power is not always the priority.

[C.A.R.]

Nicely put.

Don't get me wrong, no I've never been in a properly set up diesel track car, but I have been in some modern diesels and they all have that underlying feeling that it just isn't cut out for being ragged. Most recently was a BMW 320D - it has this mode called 'Sport +' but it still just didn't entertain.

Rev-matching, chasing the limiter etc will always be more fun and rewarding in any given petrol car.

[Niall]

Nicely put.

Don't get me wrong, no I've never been in a properly set up diesel track car, but I have been in some modern diesels and they all have that underlying feeling that it just isn't cut out for being ragged. Most recently was a BMW 320D - it has this mode called 'Sport +' but it still just didn't entertain.

Rev-matching, chasing the limiter etc will always be more fun and rewarding in any given petrol car.

Don't take that 320d as a good example. I had a 13 plate M sport one with the "sport mode" for a week or so and it was a bloody horrible engine. I got back in my Kia and was much happier and that was half the price of the BM.

[Eeyore]

Nothing wrong with a track hdi #raceestate

Oh wait....

[C.A.R.]

Is that the supposedly '126hp' Kia engine Niall? That thing is really asthmatic too!

[Niall]

Is that the supposedly '126hp' Kia engine Niall? That thing is really asthmatic too!

Yeah it is but at least its actually quite a nice engine rather than making a disgusting racket and not going anywhere like the 230d lump. Suppose it doesn't help at all that its coupled with that god awful 8 speed auto box.

[C.A.R.]

The BMW rental we had was a manual, but it just didn't feel like it had any 'go' in it. It was quick, would reach motorway cruising speed well before your average length slip road and into 3 figures by the end of it (not that I'd know of course) I just got the feeling that being driven in anger wasn't being very sympathetic to the car!

Still, to the case in point, a petrol is going to be more of a laugh on the track. What's more, if you have a problem on a track day it's way easier to diagnose a straightforward n/a petrol than an upset diesel.

[Alan_M]

The BMW rental we had was a manual, but it just didn't feel like it had any 'go' in it. It was quick, would reach motorway cruising speed well before your average length slip road and into 3 figures by the end of it (not that I'd know of course) I just got the feeling that being driven in anger wasn't being very sympathetic to the car!

Still, to the case in point, a petrol is going to be more of a laugh on the track. What's more, if you have a problem on a track day it's way easier to diagnose a straightforward n/a petrol than an upset diesel.

I used to have an '07 120d and thought the engine was brilliant for a DERV, only bettered by the BMW 3ltr diesel. Mine was the 177bhp lump, and more with the remap (in the 200bhp area). They tend to feel like they have no go, because the torque is well spread across the rev range. In reality, they're fairly quick. Mine with the remap would probably scare my 205Mi in a straight line.

Can't see how a DERV can be 'fun' on a track though but that's me. Maybe I'll give one a go some day and I'll be enlightened. I done a lap of the 'Ring in the 120d, although not quite pushing it as it was dense fog and rain (quick enough to overtake a caged Ring Racer car though), but that was nowhere near as fun as the 205 in the same conditions.

[lewisdmz]

I just got the feeling that being driven in anger wasn't being very sympathetic to the car!

That was the main reason my stage 1 HDi had to go, the torque was nice for overtakes and short bursts of acceleration but 'keeping it on the boil' so to speak through some twisties felt so wrong. I think it's the way noise increases but power decreases once you get past about 3.8k (or whatever it is) gives the impression that you 'shouldn't' be doing it.

Completely different kettle of fish to a well set up XUD I'm sure, but just my 2p on stock or basically stock diesels.

[lolsteve]

As lewis says while the hdi was really good for a overtake at 60 or when the boost was just right I never felt happy revving it, the smile factor was just not there. Reving all the way to a 7.2k limiter and bouncing it just makes me feel more racecar than the hdi ever did even if it might well be slower