Full fat Stage 3 setup

[JTaylor2005]

Hi All,

Been for a drive tonight and a few times the car really surprised me at what it was capable of keeping up with even in only a stage 1 setup.

It got me wondering what exactly would be the absolute most you could get out of one of these engines reliably. I have thought about what there is so far and what could be done to gain more power. Would it ever be possible to make a good reliable 200hp will a good spread of torque?

- Intercooler is a must (As good flow and routing of pipes to increase flow without having to raise pressure to make up for it)
- Better turbo. Possibly a VNT controlled by a stand alone Arduino controller?
- Stainless steel log manifold to allow higher exhaust flow
- Possibly 16v head and pistons? Or a ported out head?
- Stronger con rods?
- Larger injectors with a higher pressure pump?
- Clutch that could handle a full spread of torque and high HP? Possibly a different gearbox to take the power?

I'm just throwing ideas out just wondering what could be possible and how much HP these things could make.


Engine

Block - DW10 block with DW10
Crank - DW10 Crank (Possibly polished, balanced etc)
Rods - DW10 rods? DW10BTED4 (Stronger due to 136hp on siemens setup?)
Pistons - DW10 Pistons
Head - DW10 8v Head with stronger valve springs?

Fuel Delivery

Pump - R70 Fuel pump with fuel pressure sensor and better lift pump
Injectors - Standard Bosch DW10 - Modified nozzles? Angle to suit the 16v head??

Air Intake

Turbo - VNT Turbo Setup controlled by the ECU (What would be a good turbo for this use)
Intake - Big cone filter with shortest possible run to intake of turbo (MAF Sensor mounted midpoint for less turbulence. MAF Needed?)
Intercooler - Large single pass intercooler with 2.5" pipework. Shortest route possible. No pieces of thin stock pipework that would limit flow.

Exhaust

Manifold - Custom made log manifold or gearbox mounted manifold set-up. Long thinner pipes into a collector or large log style?
General Pipe - 2.5/3" Straight through / Single silencer setup. Don't want stupidly loud haha.

[Poodle]

The sky is the limit. Problem is most of the work hasn't been done often and certainly hasn't been exhaustively tested, as such you'll be relying on trial and error testing a lot, which costs... There are a fair few examples of them passing 200bhp, you can find them around the internet if you're patient with the searching.

Vnt can be controlled from the ecu, no need for a seperate arduino controller. If you have a clutch that can handle stage 2, it -should- manage stage 3 as long as you don't go mad with the torque. Gearbox should be fine too, if driven with sympathy. The main restriction encountered so far appears to be exhaust back pressure, has been fairly well documented if you feel like doing some reading, yet to hear of a proven, reliable solution. Shortly after that you will find the fuel system struggling with flow and injection duration, and again, yet to see a proven, reliable solution.

Try finding build threads for lars, brynlwllynog (or however you spell it) and tb206hdi, that should get you moving.

[Paul_13]

Can of worms!

As fast as I know, no turbo is a direct fit, so either what toseland has done or gear box mount.

Injectors from what I've read are a tricky subject, these engines have a funny injection angle on the nozzle.

R70 fuel pump should do the job nicely, but refurbished not 2nd hand unless it's a known working item

Not many options with the gearbox without modifying stuff.

One thing that's been playing on my mind is fitting a vnt and lifting the head on standard head bolts, don't know if any one has run into this problem before

[Piggy]

Yup you would need ARPs

Likely to want uprated valve springs too to avoid float.

The head is reliable enough. 16v does have a fair bit more flow.

All the info is out there, as Poodle says... There is no real limit other than your expertise/wallet

[welshpug]

I don't get this thing about the head bolts, they're the same on all the DW10's, from the 90 hp 8v to the 180 hp 16v, as well as the DW12, even the twin turbo variant.

Maybe they've changed the spec over the years, worth trying before wasting cash on ARP stuff, its not even the best out there.

[Midnightclub]

I can't say I can ever recall a tuned HDi lifting the head.. I'm sure you'd be perfectly fine running stock bolts til over 200hp. You'd be better off investing that money in some forged rods and work on the valve train.

[JTaylor2005]

Ah so it seems the main two issues are getting the exhaust flow out and enough fuel in.

So on the exhaust a log manifold made well out of stainless and much larger bore would be good. Which would then allow any turbo flange to be mounted onto it.

Now the 16v head and pistons. Do they use the same injectors as the ones in the 8v or are they their own? They run stock of 136hp if I'm remembering correctly?

[welshpug]

If you're thinking of more valves just use the whole engine, there's too many differences to make it viable to swap bits about.

[Ruan]

The reason people end up lifting the head is due to the problem of using the stock injectors - the OEM calibrates the engine for a set power level, uses the best nozzle size for the power produced, max engine speed and where the power needs to be, yet small enough to get excellent atomisation even at lower railpressure. Unfortunately, asking for double stock power on the stock injectors is not going to work well.

When the OEM calibrates it with the correct nozzles and other hardware, it means that they can get the full injection in the cylinder in x crank degrees, keeping it within the window of having heat and compression, and tuned so the maximum force is placed on the piston downwards, not too early and creating negative torque as the piston comes up, not too late and "chasing" the piston down the bore and exerting less force on the piston. Not to mention, keep within emissions specs...

When you start pushing the power up, you can either A. Extend the duration for more fuel at the same pressure or B. Increase the rail pressure for more fuel in a given time frame or C. Get bigger injectors that already inject more fuel in the same period of time. The problem lies that when you're asking for over DOUBLE the amount of fuel - you can crank the rail pressure which will give you gains in shortening the duration for the same amount of fuel, but there's a limit. Or you've got more chance of burning it if you start the injection early, i.e. needing more advance to stop the end of injection getting too late - run it too late and you'll blow the still burning gasses out the exhaust valve, causing a lot of heat, smoke, noise straight out the exhaust. Problem is, too much advance increases PCP (Peak Cylinder Pressure) significantly - this a major contributing factor to lifting cylinder heads... Combine this with double the fuel, probably a bit more railpressure to get that amount in even earlier and before you know it, you've got PCPs way higher than you expected.

So yes, you can make the power on stock nozzles, but you're running the engine so far out of calibration, you're likely to have real problems trying to get it all in in time - when you're injecting large quantities *and* giving it a load of timing to try and stop the EOI getting criminal.

Or just stick some bigger nozzles in and then you solve those problems, but end up with about a thousand other problems.

If you're feeling particularly enthusiastic, you can now buy PSGs (Pressure Sensing Glowplugs) and I'm sure with an MCU/FPGA doing a bit of processing, you could get some very interesting data out of them!

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If you're thinking of more valves just use the whole engine, there's too many differences to make it viable to swap bits about.

It's SIGNIFICANTLY easier to swap the pistons out of a RHW 16v into a RHY 8v bottom end and put a Bosch 16v (RHW/RHM/RHT/4HX) head on top - all the mounting stuff is way different on the 16v blocks.

---

Ah so it seems the main two issues are getting the exhaust flow out and enough fuel in.

So on the exhaust a log manifold made well out of stainless and much larger bore would be good. Which would then allow any turbo flange to be mounted onto it.

Now the 16v head and pistons. Do they use the same injectors as the ones in the 8v or are they their own? They run stock of 136hp if I'm remembering correctly?

IMHO the exhaust manifold yes is shit, but not as bad as the stock turbo...

The DW10BTED4 (RHR) Siemens Injected 16v yes is 136hp - but has a slightly different cylinder head to the DW10ATED4/DW12TED4 (RHW/4HX) Bosch Injected 16v engines which are 110hp (2.0 16v) and 136hp (2.2 16v). They're not really interchangable, there is so much different on the BTED4 RHR engine - this is the Ford one that's used in the Focus, Mondeo, CMax, Volvos, 407, late 307s.

The injectors are totally different - they don't fit for starters. DW10ATED4 RHW 2.0 16v is about the same size as the DW10TD/DW10TED (RHY/RHZ) 2.0 8v, DW12TED4 4HX is bigger again.

Extra bonus info - DW12UTED (4HY) is the same size as DW10TD/TED (RHY/RHZ).

[darrenjlobb]

If you're thinking of more valves just use the whole engine, there's too many differences to make it viable to swap bits about.

This is massively incorrect for reference.

[welshpug]

care to actually expand on that?

[darrenjlobb]

The only things that need to be swapped out to drop it onto another block are the pistons, and a small mod to the block deck. Other than that, you are then able to bolt it to a stock HDI engine, which will bolt directly into the 306 with no hassle at all.

Using the RHW engine means that:

A - None of the alternator / pas / aircon assay brackets will transfer / bolt on, meaning you need to use all the new items from newer motor
B - The upper engine mount for the HDI will not fit the bracket on the RHW, and the RHY bracket wont fit the RHW block... (Meaning either mod top mount or use a new van style one which might fit?)
C - Lower engine mount dosn't bolt up

And to be honest there are several other differences where things just don't bolt up / cause issues (water distro block flange different etc). Admitantly however the newer block is of a stronger design with thicker casting / more webbing, being the main reason I used it, but did find quite a few things that I had to get around because of it, and if i was doing it again would likely just build it into a RHY bottom end to save all the extra hassle.

[mr_fish]

Just to add, DW12 has some of the issues Darren mentioned above but also you would have to use a ML box as a BE won't bolt up to it.

[silverzx]

Just to add, buy a nicer car.

[JTaylor2005]

Haha. This is to see what people reckon the dw engine could be capable of. Any of these guys could have just "bought a nicer car" but then it's just the same as everyone else's.

[Ruan]

If people are interested, from another mapper - the guy is a bit of a legend when it comes to knowing about EDC15 and the PSA HDI:

2.0 8v RHY, GT23V, R70, running 1800bar on a 2000bar sensor and a well put together intercooler. That's it. Yes - stock nozzles.

[Paul_13]

That's impressive

[JTaylor2005]

Looks a nice curve as well. Im going to start editing my first post on here as I am going to start putting in bits that people would reckon would help to achieve the perfect franken-engine haha.

---

Updated the first post. Theoretically would that get it off to a good start haha

[Ruan]

Why are you hung up on a 16v head, as seen by above, the 8v flows enough for that sorta power, it's just people get hung up on pointless things - IMHO anyway...

I'd start off by fitting a *modern* VNT/VGT turbo to a stock 8v engine with an R70 pump and 1800bar sensor. Then get it mapped and see what it produces.

If you then decide you want more power, you can possibly go down the route of bigger nozzles.

[JTaylor2005]

Not the head that causes any flow issues then? So just an 8v head with a better designed manifold set-up and better valve springs?

[silverzx]

I have a BRAND NEW GT2359V for sale... 

[JTaylor2005]

Haha this will be a while away if anything gets done. Just wanted to see what people would suggest and put together to get the highest possible power out of these engines.

If I'm ever going to shoot for high power figures it will have to be after I have got my new car as well so I don't have to rely on this car to get me to work :/

[Ruan]

I'd say the only things required are decent exhaust, the manifold is a bit shitty and can probably be improved, if you're fitting a decent turbo, you might as well anyway.

Valve springs/lifters or whatever you want to blame as this fabled problem - unless you know the exact reasons for this happening and the exact process involved and you are suffering with the problem and you cannot fix it, why touch them? Currently everything you're reading is speculation and rumour - even I'm speculating, but I've a pretty good idea as to why it happens, but I won't say because otherwise there will be this massive obsession that before you know it, it'll be a requirement of all stage 1 cars to have a modified valvetrain. I've experience of one person who's run into proper valvetrain issues which was solvable by adjusting a few components. Until you know you're hitting the problem, know why you're hitting the problem and can't solve it, leave them - you're likely to open a massive can of worms by playing with the valvetrain and AFAIK nobody has done any thorough testing and it's all massive speculation that it will fix the problem.

A modern, well setup turbo with a good exhaust should mean you never see the problem anyway.

[JTaylor2005]

We talking about valve lift here? I am supposing you would only ever see it on very high revs with high fuel input and high cylinder pressures with a badly designed exhaust and restrictive turbo?

[Ruan]

It's a very specific scenario that it happens - don't worry about it until you start getting the problem since 99.999999% of the time, it's solvable by adjustments.

[JTaylor2005]

Can you use any old VNT Turbo off say a 2l diesel that produces 190hp? For example this one off a modern volvo D4 engine is capable of running 190hp on the stock set-up of that engine. Would that then work on a HDI engine if plumbed in well with a good manifold and exhaust?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VOLVO-V70-XC70...234620ef9e

[welshpug]

that's off a 163 bhp 2.4 5 pot.

[JTaylor2005]

Oh but for example the one say off a modern d5 with the 190hp output that would be around the size that would work well?

[Ruan]

The 183hp Volvo D5 turbo isn't bad - the GTB2056VLK - very popular option for around 200hp. Doesn't mind high pressure for if you've not a ported head, water cooled, will do 230hp.

The new 2060VKLRs from the Mercedes Bluetecs are unreal though...

If you're going for something absolutely state of the art, the GTD1752VRK will be insane.

[bashbarnard]

The 183hp Volvo D5 turbo isn't bad - the GTB2056VLK - very popular option for around 200hp. Doesn't mind high pressure for if you've not a ported head, water cooled, will do 230hp.

The new 2060VKLRs from the Mercedes Bluetecs are unreal though...

If you're going for something absolutely state of the art, the GTD1752VRK will be insane.

I notice as the turbo tech gets on the smaller the turbos are getting. It seems in the last 10 years turbos have come on more than when they were first invented by that french dude with a ride on thing back in the 20s or 30s