ByeBye Diesels

[lolsteve]

Council houses don't mean bad people, but statisticly there is more crkme/poverty there so..ya know... I really feel for people who really want to work but can't or those who got dealt a bad hand in life. But those who do just think the world owes them somethibg can just fk right off.
agree with getting the super rich to pay their way too. Or at least if you find they'v been avoiding paying taxes or lying about how much they got then take everything from them as they the ones causing peoplemail to go to bed hungry.
Also pensions, not a nice thought but too many elderly putting a strain on the system. Although I do love my dear nan

[nominous]

18 to 24 up to £57.35
25 or over up to £72.40

So divide by 6 (7 days in a week, some people work 6 days a week so you can too).
that's your daily wage. Enjoy the silence


I have no issue with people that live in council houses. I have no issue with people down on their luck.
I've been unemployed. I never claimed but that's a different story and was my choice.
I don't have an issue with paying benefits to people that need them whilst they find a job.
I have a big issue with paying money and getting nothing in return. Or to people that have no intention of getting a job.

I see no reason why we cannot pay benefits in return for something tangible.
Whilst you may consider sitting quietly all day is some sort of punishment, it's actually a more extreme education on the reality of what it means to have a job that you don't necessarily like.

I grew up in a town with people who were 3rd or 4th generation unemployed.
Where there is nothing to do but rob and have babies, becoming a great grand mother by 50 is some sort of badge of honour.
Where working has become getting as much free govt money as possible and milking the system.

But yet as above, the better off in society are having less kids. They want to them to grow up to be comfortable too, they spend time with them, they develop them as people.
The other side of the coin has many families where they don't give a hoot about what their kids get up to and have little in the way of life skills to offer them.
It's actually tragic for whole generations to have very little to zero hope of bettering themselves from birth.
If only because their feckless parents are not interested in bettering themselves or their offspring.
Extreme measures are needed to fix things now as we've let it all go too far down the wrong path since the welfare state was introduced.

Look to countries that have genuine poor people living in utter poverty in shacks with no water or electric.
All they want is to better themselves and have better lives for their kids.
Sadly we have a section of society in this country and throughout the west that don't give two hoots about bettering themselves and that tells me that their lives are too cushy and they are getting too much for free whilst giving nothing in return.
If it were otherwise, they would be doing something about it.

The usual 50" LCD's full sky, latest phone, all brighthouse mod cons.
It just should not be possible on free money which is supposed to be (should be) for stopping folks from starving.
Not giving them an acceptable lifestyle that allows them to enjoy life without contributing to the society that they are milking and bleeding dry.

---

first problem though, state slave labour force

It's not slave labour.
No force to be there at all. If you don't want to go it's entirely optional.
But that just means the govt doesn't give you any money.

It's a choice.
Doesn't have to be sitting quietly.
Could be giving people lifeskills or education.
We are doing this already for free, so why not link it into receiving benefits ?
Already you have to sign on to continue to get the payment. Why not sign on and spend a day in a classroom in order to get payment ?


Not after slaves. Just after a return on my investment as a taxpayer.

[Paul_13]

Did any body else get a break down on how their tax is spent?
1/4 of it goes towards the dole generation

[Mattcheese31]

It's really not as simple as you are making out, how is a single mother or father going to go sit somewhere all day? Put the kids in childcare? Great idea, another drain on the state and the adult doesn't have time to go look fir work or train towards a job, it's ok having opinions but you have to understand your situation is not the same as everyone else's, working for your dole is one thing but if you can work for your dole why can't they pay you a living wage for that work? Also if someone is doing a job for dole money then surely that could be a paid job for someone......
I ain't spitting, I've lived in deprived areas all my life, not as bad as some but where 70k buys a terrace house round here other people are buying cars at that price.....

[Mattcheese31]

And a quarter of tax isn't towards dole....it's benefits in general, covers a lot more than dole

[Matt-Rallye]

18 to 24 up to £57.35
25 or over up to £72.40

So divide by 6 (7 days in a week, some people work 6 days a week so you can too).
that's your daily wage. Enjoy the silence


I have no issue with people that live in council houses. I have no issue with people down on their luck.
I've been unemployed. I never claimed but that's a different story and was my choice.
I don't have an issue with paying benefits to people that need them whilst they find a job.
I have a big issue with paying money and getting nothing in return. Or to people that have no intention of getting a job.

I see no reason why we cannot pay benefits in return for something tangible.
Whilst you may consider sitting quietly all day is some sort of punishment, it's actually a more extreme education on the reality of what it means to have a job that you don't necessarily like.

I grew up in a town with people who were 3rd or 4th generation unemployed.
Where there is nothing to do but rob and have babies, becoming a great grand mother by 50 is some sort of badge of honour.
Where working has become getting as much free govt money as possible and milking the system.

But yet as above, the better off in society are having less kids. They want to them to grow up to be comfortable too, they spend time with them, they develop them as people.
The other side of the coin has many families where they don't give a hoot about what their kids get up to and have little in the way of life skills to offer them.
It's actually tragic for whole generations to have very little to zero hope of bettering themselves from birth.
If only because their feckless parents are not interested in bettering themselves or their offspring.
Extreme measures are needed to fix things now as we've let it all go too far down the wrong path since the welfare state was introduced.

Look to countries that have genuine poor people living in utter poverty in shacks with no water or electric.
All they want is to better themselves and have better lives for their kids.
Sadly we have a section of society in this country and throughout the west that don't give two hoots about bettering themselves and that tells me that their lives are too cushy and they are getting too much for free whilst giving nothing in return.
If it were otherwise, they would be doing something about it.

The usual 50" LCD's full sky, latest phone, all brighthouse mod cons.
It just should not be possible on free money which is supposed to be (should be) for stopping folks from starving.
Not giving them an acceptable lifestyle that allows them to enjoy life without contributing to the society that they are milking and bleeding dry.

---

first problem though, state slave labour force

It's not slave labour.
No force to be there at all. If you don't want to go it's entirely optional.
But that just means the govt doesn't give you any money.

It's a choice.
Doesn't have to be sitting quietly.
Could be giving people lifeskills or education.
We are doing this already for free, so why not link it into receiving benefits ?
Already you have to sign on to continue to get the payment. Why not sign on and spend a day in a classroom in order to get payment ?


Not after slaves. Just after a return on my investment as a taxpayer.

I completely sympathise with this and agree!

EVERYTHING in life is your choice, wether it be to better yourself or not / work or be unemployed etc etc

I live in rural wales where everything is apparently on its arse yet the longest i have ever been unemployed since starting secondary school is a fortnight. Because if i dont have a job, i focus everything into getting a job! Before i could drive i cycled for miles handing out CV's and applications even for jobs i didn't want to do.

If everyone had my attitude to working there wouldn't be unemployment/. People shouldnt have kids unless they can provide for them otherwise its just irresponsible!

[lolsteve]

Pensions!

[Dum-Dum]

Yeah most of the tax that goes on welfare goes on pensions

IMO I don't think the state pension should be means tested. I've been paying in for a state pension for a quarter of my working life already I don't want them taking that off me as £400 a month extra in retirement on top of my private (public sector) pension and having my mortgage paid off will see me very comfortable in my old age.

[Paul_13]

Sorry welfare I meant

[nominous]

It's really not as simple as you are making out

Quite right. it's a workable suggestion, not a manifesto.
Problem is, instead of embrace something then work out the difficulties, the country (or shall I say the government) prefers the approach of highlighting all the problems with an idea and making sod all progress in any direction.

how is a single mother or father going to go sit somewhere all day? Put the kids in childcare? Great idea, another drain on the state and the adult doesn't have time to go look fir work or train towards a job

Sitting quietly is a suggestion.
It could be sitting and learning, or sitting and job hunting. The point is taking your "free time" away as at the moment it's free money do as you please.
For those with kids that are genuinely looking after them and are out of work, then perhaps there will be many in similar circumstances. So how about a get together parent and toddler group. We have them currently., No one is forced to go, but yet schools are finding that each year the intake of 4year olds are less able and capable of being in school. Kids are missing basic things like toilet training and being able to speak properly - so are some of the parents.
I'm not suggesting this is all down to the great unemployed with kids, but I'm sure out of work parents with free time would welcome free parent and toddler groups, especially if non-attendance means no money.

And hey, it might be a drain on the state today. But longer term, little johnny might turn out not to be an adult with no hope, no prospects and a bigger drain on the state during the rest of his life for 60+ years milking the system, than the 4 years prior to school where research suggests the character of a person is really formed.
Investing in children should be a priority. It's not the kid's fault that their parent is a feckless no hoper who doesn't give two shits about their status in the world. Unfortunately the parent is bringing up the child to be the same. We should intervene to fix that for the good of the child and for the good of society.

I'm for paying tax towards universally free state funded childcare. Tho admittedly I'd rather the money came from something pointless like trident.
Look to the Scandinavian countries for suitable success stories.

it's ok having opinions but you have to understand your situation is not the same as everyone else's, working for your dole is one thing but if you can work for your dole why can't they pay you a living wage for that work? Also if someone is doing a job for dole money then surely that could be a paid job for someone......

It seems that benefits are a living wage. Despite what some commentators may say there are plenty of people in the UK that are living on benefits solely. They are coping well enough. I don't see a need to give them any more.

I don't think you quite get it.
It's not about giving people something, especially not more!! We are doing that now and it's not working.
It's about empowering them to do better for themselves
Give a man a fish a day verses give them a rod.
They need empowering some how as currently they are either too lazy or CBA to do better because life is acceptable. Make their life unacceptable and they will take action.
No different to you not liking your current job and doing something about getting a better job. I see people here that hate their job but are comfortable enough on the money to CBA to change. Up to the point that balance changes and they get sick enough to find something else.

If you are on the dole for life so far and everything is ok, nothing is rocking your world significantly to push you off the dole.
That needs change and in my view it's down to a lack of understanding of reward for work and giving out free money.

Sticking someone in a room they don't want to be in for piss poor amount of money and taking away their current do as they please freedom is going to make most people try harder to find a better scenario.



And we have had a wave of immigration over the past decade filling jobs that the several million British unemployed are not interested in doing themselves.
Some of those jobs are skilled but by far most are unskilled and thus many British unemployed could have done them if we had taken more action to force them off benefits and into the jobs that were available. Because clearly they were not interested in doing it themselves. Why ?
Because benefits are clearly better than having to go to a job for little (comparatively) extra money compared to loosing your freedom whilst getting money for doing nowt.

/rant

[Paul_13]

I wouldn't in any way day trident is pointless. Yes it is a huge drain on finances, but without it we would be walked over.

I do agree the nuclear bomb should never have been invented in the first place!

[John1.4]

it was the next step in a chain of development, that's all, they were tasked in making a weapon to end a war, and they made one, it did go a little far after that, but if you really think about it, the only people directly killed by nukes were in hiroshima and nagasaki, there have been no more detonations in populated zones, so while yes it's a terrible weapon, should have never been invented etc, and every safeguard should be brought in to make sure they are never used again, the 2 bombs dropped in war have killed less people than 9mm pistols

even if we didn't have trident, governments still have itchy trigger fingers enough so if one person launches, pretty much everyone else would launch as well - M.A.D mutually assured destruction

as far as jobs go, i agree that if there are say, 1000 unemployed people (fully able, unattached etc), and 1000 jobs that none of the 1000 people want to do because it's 'below' what they expect but would pay a living wage, then any payments to them should cease, they had a chance at a perfectly reasonable job, and didn't take it

[nominous]

I agree with need nukes. I don't agree with the delivery platform. Submarines make a lot of sense. But perhaps it's a tad expensive and could be cheaper?
The missiles can fly quite far. The subs don't need to be near the targets, they need to be somewhere the enemy doesn't know they are.
That doesn't require nuclear propulsion.

It is however clear that once you give up your nukes you are an easy target.
So much for us honouring the agreement with Ukraine that allowed Russian to annex Crimea without our support despite a treaty we signed promising it.

See Libya.
Or Iraq.
And why NK is still hopping around like a box of angry frogs.

[Toms306]

Wasn't this thread about diesels or something?

[Ruan]

You're all against war...

I say we need a good war to curb population size and drive innovation.

It's a well known fact that nothing drives innovation like being shot at.

IMHO - Build a fuckload of nuclear power plants, get ours back off the bloody French, get fracking. There's probably a good reason I'm not in power tbf...

[Mattcheese31]

@ nominous, not quoting as it's too long, I understand perfectly fella, I understand that when I say sitting doing nothing is pointless you come up with a better idea lol...... If there's jobs then make people do them for their benefits by all means, although that would be easier if current and previous governments hadn't sold off all our assets, buses,trains,power etc.....we could really have given people jobs .....Hmmmm what could have been eh if they weren't so concerned with lining their own pockets

[RetroPug]

I agree with need nukes. I don't agree with the delivery platform. Submarines make a lot of sense. But perhaps it's a tad expensive and could be cheaper?
The missiles can fly quite far. The subs don't need to be near the targets, they need to be somewhere the enemy doesn't know they are.
That doesn't require nuclear propulsion.

It is however clear that once you give up your nukes you are an easy target.
So much for us honouring the agreement with Ukraine that allowed Russian to annex Crimea without our support despite a treaty we signed promising it.

See Libya.
Or Iraq.
And why NK is still hopping around like a box of angry frogs.

Nuclear propulsion allows a submarine to remain on operations without refuelling for huge lengths of time, in fact the limiting factor is food for the crew, latest nuclear submarines don't need refuelling for a few decades. This means that they can stay submerged almost indefinitely. Not using nuclear power to power a new submarine is designing it to be at a tactical disadvantage from the offset until someone comes up with something even better.

There is literally no point in spending hundreds of millions, if not billions on brand new submarines that can only stay submerged for several days or perhaps at most a couple of weeks.

[Kezzieboy]

I'm with cheesey boy.

Also, what the f*ck do we need nukes for, we need to stop clinging on to historical prestige and power and admit we're a little island that nobody cares about. Once we do that we can sack off the nukes and half our armed forces and spend the money on something better.

Also, nominous, that basically already exists, it's Ian Duncan-Smith's bastard child and is called 'workfare' AKA the tories giving massive corporations a supply of free labour paid for by the taxpayer, rather than making them pay a living wage to their employees. Driving down the value of labour, and wages so that yet more people's wages need to be subsidised by the welfare state. Most people claiming benefits are IN WORK, the best incentive to get people off their arses and into jobs is a positive one that they'll actually earn enough money to make a living, not some zero-hour contract with minimum wage poverty pay. Meanwhile, the greedy corporations pay some of the lowest business taxes in the western world.

Democracy, f*ck yeah.

[Ruan]

Errr, to stop countries like North Korea being a significant worry for significantly better developed, democratic nations when they want their way and to run the world?!

[Kezzieboy]

That's what the yanks are there for. Leave them to bear the costs of being the world police.

Nobody is going to fire a Nuke anyway, we're still in a complete state of M.A.D., whoever shoots first is gonna die like the rest of us.

[Ruan]

You trust the yanks?

I don't.

[Kezzieboy]

Nope, but trust doesn't really come into it with a nuclear arsenal, they'll do what the f*ck they want anyway! And I don't trust our government or armed forces much more than theirs, tbh.

[Poodle]

I completely sympathise with this and agree!

EVERYTHING in life is your choice, wether it be to better yourself or not / work or be unemployed etc etc

I live in rural wales where everything is apparently on its arse yet the longest i have ever been unemployed since starting secondary school is a fortnight. Because if i dont have a job, i focus everything into getting a job! Before i could drive i cycled for miles handing out CV's and applications even for jobs i didn't want to do.

If everyone had my attitude to working there wouldn't be unemployment/. People shouldnt have kids unless they can provide for them otherwise its just irresponsible!

Here we have the "X" factor (urgh, i shudder to even think that phrase now lol), when it comes down to it a lot of people are just lazy as sin. I have a friend with two kids who lives in council accommodation, he is probably the epitome of what a lot of people consider to be dole scum, minus the attitude problem. However, he is still my friend because, despite continuous poor choices, he does his best to learn from those mistakes and keeps trying to better himself and his family. He would be no worse off if he didn't work at all and instead lived on state benefits, but he goes and works 60 hour weeks anyway because that's the right thing to do.

Tbf to the conservative government they are making it a lot harder for people to make a living out of doing f*ck all, i actually don't care if their workfare scheme only immediately benefits the tories' mates. Any idiot can see the long-term and wider ranging benefits far outweigh a bit of buddy-clubbing. If people don't like it they'll stop being lazy shits ad get a job that they've chosen themselves, right?

Ruan makes a good point about war, mind... War would be full of diesels.

[Niall]

I'm with cheesey boy.

Also, what the f*ck do we need nukes for, we need to stop clinging on to historical prestige and power and admit we're a little island that nobody cares about. Once we do that we can sack off the nukes and half our armed forces and spend the money on something better.

Also, nominous, that basically already exists, it's Ian Duncan-Smith's bastard child and is called 'workfare' AKA the tories giving massive corporations a supply of free labour paid for by the taxpayer, rather than making them pay a living wage to their employees. Driving down the value of labour, and wages so that yet more people's wages need to be subsidised by the welfare state. Most people claiming benefits are IN WORK, the best incentive to get people off their arses and into jobs is a positive one that they'll actually earn enough money to make a living, not some zero-hour contract with minimum wage poverty pay. Meanwhile, the greedy corporations pay some of the lowest business taxes in the western world.

Democracy, f*ck yeah.

Must...Not....bite

That's what the yanks are there for. Leave them to bear the costs of being the world police.

Nobody is going to fire a Nuke anyway, we're still in a complete state of M.A.D., whoever shoots first is gonna die like the rest of us.

I wouldn't be so sure. The North Koreans are f*cking mental after all.
Also, you can just say leave the Yanks to it. We do have to fight our own battles at times!

[Piggy]

Wasn't this thread about diesels or something?

Yeah, what the hell happened?!


As I have said before.

Never will everyone be happy while man rules man.

• It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.
  
  
• All of this I have seen, and I applied my heart to every work that has been done under the sun, during the time that man has dominated man to his harm.
  

[Mattcheese31]

Wasn't this thread about diesels or something?

Yeah, what the hell happened?!


As I have said before.

Never will everyone be happy while man rules man.

• It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.
  
  
• All of this I have seen, and I applied my heart to every work that has been done under the sun, during the time that man has dominated man to his harm.
  

I don't know chap, we all pretty much accept society needs some form of leadership, in my experience most people actually like being told what to do, it removes the pressure of choice then, not myself however but I'm a musician, we've got a long predisposition against power lol,
everybody will never be happy I agree, however I think they way things are  currently being run it's a damn long way from being ideal

[Slam Wagon]

Politicians on minimum wage. Then see what happens. Theyre supposed to be the voice of the people yet they get paid way more than average with perks on top.

[Toms306]

If politicians were on minimum wage no-one would do the job, why do a difficult job if you could shelf stack for the same money...

[Poodle]

Yes piggy, bring back the pharoahs!

Politicians shouldn't be allowed to be politicians if they haven't had a proper job for ten years first. At the moment our world is run by a bunch of public school boys and graduates who have never actually been a real part of said world.

[Dum-Dum]

That's what the yanks are there for. Leave them to bear the costs of being the world police.

Nobody is going to fire a Nuke anyway, we're still in a complete state of M.A.D., whoever shoots first is gonna die like the rest of us.

I wouldn't be so sure. The North Koreans are f*cking mental after all.
Also, you can just say leave the Yanks to it. We do have to fight our own battles at times!

Yeah North korea is bat shit crazy, apparently there was a bit of a military coup and Kim Jong un isn't really in charge any more and they are just crazy enough to think they could start invading places. They are the worlds 9th biggest nuclear power.

Also Russia has had no real trouble taking over half the ukraine recently, they are the worlds biggest nuclear power.

I think I'll keep the nukes thanks.