Veg running

[bashbarnard]

So I scored a bosch pump set up for cheap. Winning to start with. Came off an 80k phase one in scrapyard all running. Now im aware about keeping records but what if I run veg and.mrs runs veg an a separate car. 2 lots of records I assume as this applys to an individual??

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[Mattcheese31]

The veg allowance is per household, so yes you should keep both records but you only get 1000 litres between you

[bashbarnard]

I thought it was per person.?? This is why I ask these questions before I do something illegal. Lol

[nominous]

Matt, do you have anything that specifically says that?
The HMRC guide reads both as you the individual and the premises.

[bashbarnard]

4.2.1 Exempt producers/users
If you have produced or used less than 2,500 litres of either:

any biofuel
any other fuel substitute or additive
within the last 12 months, and/or expect to produce or use less than 2,500 litres in the next 12 months, you are an exempt producer and do not need to register with us and account for duty. However, there are simple record keeping requirements, which are described in paragraph 4.9.1.

Production includes the manufacture or processing of road fuel, and the setting aside of any product that has not been charged with duty, with the intention of using it as road fuel.



This is directly off the goverment website. It doesnt say houshold. It says you. My interpretation of this is private individual??

[nominous]

4.9.1 suggests premises.

Refers to section 2.5 which talks about premises too.

Ambiguity.

[Paul_13]

So it's 2500 not 2000

[r3k1355]

I always understood it was 2500

[Paul_13]

I think a lot of people had it in their heads it was 2000 on here

[nominous]

Oh hang on...

http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/mybb...3#pid49183

But read the note referenced:

4.2.3 Producers sharing premises and equipment

Regulation 8A of the Biofuels and Other Fuel Substitutes (Payment of Excise Duties etc) (Amendment) Regulations 2007 (SI 1234 of 2007) which came into force on 30 June 2007, has a condition that separate producers at the same premises or sets of premises must register and account for duty if the total of that production is 2,500 litres or more a year. The threshold does not apply separately to each individual producer at the same premises - or sets of premises. The producer(s) must register if total annual production at the same premises or sets of premises is 2,500 litres or more.

Partnerships, collectives and cooperatives (including non-profit making organisations) are liable to register and account for duty if total annual production is 2,500 litres or more.

So the way I read it is that if you are a user ie: buying it, then you and the mrs each have 2500ltr.
If you are producing it ie: making bio, or filtering WVO for you AND the Mrs, then the premises has a 2500ltr limit in total.

[bashbarnard]

Thats separate producers. Do we count as producers? This is all very confusing.
I would have said private individuals it counts toward still so 5000 litres say. But I cant be sure. Id like to make enquiries into this but.no doubt they would make my life hell ringing them to get an answer.

---

Also just read that biodiesel forum thing and it seems we can.both use it each with a separate limit.

[nominous]

I could do a flow chart?

Do you collect and filter waste oil ? If Yes, max 2500ltr for the address and all occupants.

Do you buy SVO from a shop and just pour it in? If Yes, 2500ltr max per person buying it - so the Mrs will have to buy her share, strictly you couldn't buy it for her to use as that would make you a producer IMHO.


that's my take FWIW

[PartyJas]

I doubt the HMRC would ever pursue anything unless you were using the vehicle for business use, taxi, delivery's etc. In a 306 DT you would roughly get 25,000 miles out your yearly quota of veg oil. If you cover less than that in a year then i wonder, would MOT certificates be acceptable as proof of usage as it displays the vehicle mileage.?

[Mattcheese31]

The veg allowance is per household, so yes you should keep both records but you only get 1000 litres between you

Sorry yes it is 2500l but I'm pretty sure it's per household in a rolling 12 month period and no commercial use as I'm sure you know

[bashbarnard]

Mots not accurate on old vehicles. I know my speedo heads been changed because of it dieing. I think I have to agree with nominous on this.

[nominous]

no commercial use as I'm sure you know

Ambiguous again

Define commercial use.

can I use my chip shop waste in my own private vehicle?
can I use my chip shop waste in my mobile chip shop van ?
can I use it if I'm a sole trader in my "work" vehicle ?
can I use it if I'm ltd and it's a company vehicle ?
can I do "business use" for my employer for which I'm paid 45p/mile when using veg ?

[Mattcheese31]

no commercial use as I'm sure you know

Ambiguous again

Define commercial use.

can I use my chip shop waste in my own private vehicle?
can I use my chip shop waste in my mobile chip shop van ?
can I use it if I'm a sole trader in my "work" vehicle ?
can I use it if I'm ltd and it's a company vehicle ?
can I do "business use" for my employer for which I'm paid 45p/mile when using veg ?

I wouldn't really say it's ambiguous, it's for private use, ie not work, I mean do what you want but I'd say it's pretty clear

[bashbarnard]

I was gonna say the commercial use thing is obvious. Dont use it for business end of.


This is not the reason I started the thread anyway. Lol. Its because of the use for private individuals living under the same roof. Personally reading through things I think it should be ok if you buy fresh new stuff off the shelf. For your own use.

[nominous]

Going to disagree. I don't believe it is obvious.
If I need to use my car for work I'm hardly going to empty the tank and fill it with diesel for for that journey.
The only note about non/commercial use in the legislation is:

Generally, the production of biodiesel by individuals such as householders and farmers for their own use, that is, for non-commercial purposes, would not be subject to the PPC Regulations.

erm, hang on. A farmer producing for non-commercial use??
My interpretation of that is that I'm allowed to use veg to do mileage for business purposes for my job. But that I would not be allowed to put it in a vehicle for which the sole purpose would be for commercial use.
Thus, I don't see how a farmer could put it in a tractor and suggest it's non commercial, but certainly could put it in their car. Even if they took goods to market with the car.
Ultimately however it's HMRC who decide the rules and they've worded it piss poorly. Just take a look at the veg forum thread.

Appreciate that's not why the thread was stared, but since there was misunderstanding on the quantities allowed, perhaps there is other misunderstanding too.

[bashbarnard]

there are lots of misunderstandings with this i think. Especially for me who get confused with easy things. i think its a safe bet to assume that i can use 2500 a year and my mrs could potentially use 2500 a year without running into issues. so long as we bought it fresh off the shelf. which i do already i dont collect and produce. i cba with that considering its 65ppl fresh and clean,

[nominous]

I'm doing exactly what you are planning to do

Except the Mrs has gone off veg, but she gets 60mpg and does 5K miles so isn't that bothered about it and might just use the odd one in summer.
She cba with asking me to fill it and I cba with fixing it

[bashbarnard]

awesome glad someone else is doing that. my mrs wont run 100% doesnt do mileage to justify it to be fair

[Mattcheese31]

there are lots of misunderstandings with this i think. Especially for me who get confused with easy things. i think its a safe bet to assume that i can use 2500 a year and my mrs could potentially use 2500 a year without running into issues. so long as we bought it fresh off the shelf. which i do already i dont collect and produce. i cba with that considering its 65ppl fresh and clean,

I'm willing to be proven wrong but it's per household as I understand it, not each

[nominous]

I'm willing to be proven wrong but it's per household as I understand it, not each

From the veg oil forum thread I quoted above. Emphasis mine:

N.B The \\"allowance\\" or de-minimis, is per producer or user i.e. person NOT vehicle or premises. However please see Notice 179E para 4.2.3 Producers sharing premises and equipment which covers groups.

I hope this clarifies the position.

Regards
Angela McCann
HM Revenue and Customs
Environmental Taxes - Oils Policy
3W Ralli Quays|Salford |M60 9LA

Then note the distinction I made between processing WVO and buying SVO.

[Mattcheese31]

I'm willing to be proven wrong but it's per household as I understand it, not each

From the veg oil forum thread I quoted above. Emphasis mine:

N.B The \\"allowance\\" or de-minimis, is per producer or user i.e. person NOT vehicle or premises. However please see Notice 179E para 4.2.3 Producers sharing premises and equipment which covers groups.

I hope this clarifies the position.

Regards
Angela McCann
HM Revenue and Customs
Environmental Taxes - Oils Policy
3W Ralli Quays|Salford |M60 9LA

Then note the distinction I made between processing WVO and buying SVO.

Well that's contrary to what I've read but appears to come from the correct source, ig the letter is legit then fair enough