306 2.0 hdi 16v

[dashmader]

Does anyone knows if DSLA and DLLA nozzles are interchangeable???

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i can get this nozzles and they are 8 holes, should flow a bit more, but they are DLLA and not DSLA

--DLLA153P 1721 bosch 0433 172 056 8x0,195x153°

[Poodle]

I don't believe they are interchangeable, can't remember why exactly. It was discussed at length on tdoc, now known as the nsnp.com forum.

[Ruan]

I'm fairly sure they are interchangable..

The difference is to do with how the nozzle end works, the difference is to do with the needle seating area, one type (I *think* it's DLLA) are Valve Covered Orifice, which means the needle actually seals up against the openings of the injector..

The other type is "sac" which means the injector allows fuel into a small "sac" at the tip before the orifices...



Like above..

The other type looks like:



Sure you can see the difference, generally they're the same mounting type, but can't remember which type is which, there's a PDF kicking round that does explain it.

Pros and cons to both, IIRC sac-type tends to last longer, less problematic and you don't burn them as easy due to the small quantity of diesel sat in the tip., whereas the VCO nozzle is better for emissions, but gets gummed etc easier.

[dashmader]

I am asking this because I need to buy the nozzles to see if my problem is resolved. Last night I talked to a friend that uses an RHR engine with a 6 speed gearbox on the 306 and he is using the DLLA nozzles tips from a Mercedes até 156 degrees spray angle. I will try to buy the this DLLA 153 P 1721.
This will be a good upgrade on my current nozzles in term of flow???

[dashmader]

Found some new bosch references and specs at the correct angle.

---DSLA153P797 0 433 175 197 / 0433175197 7x0,195x153°

---DSLA153P798 0 433 175 198 / 0433175198 7x0,195x153°

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And have more holes the my stock 2.2 hdi and they are quite larger

[Uberderv]

You need to check what engine the new nozzles are off, then check if the injectors enter the head at the same angle as your 2.2 head.
If they match then you should be fine, if they are the wrong angle I'd keep looking.

[darrenjlobb]

The 16v is zero plane, angle of injector dosnt matter.

Its interesting your injectors are 153 degrees, as the bosch managed ones (35/40 head) run a different angle... DLLA or DSLA makes no odds in terms of fitting / working, just the way the nozzle works. Either will work, DSLA are more common these though...

[Uberderv]

The angle of the donor nozzle does matter because if they are from an engine with offset injectors the geometry of the injection orifices will differ.
This could potentially direct part of the spray pattern onto the head/piston top.

[darrenjlobb]

Sorry yeah of course, buts its fairly easy to make sure you pick nozzles from another motor with zero plane...

[dashmader]

You need to check what engine the new nozzles are off, then check if the injectors enter the head at the same angle as your 2.2 head.
If they match then you should be fine, if they are the wrong angle I'd keep looking.

16v is zero plane, from what I can understand there is no angle on the base of the injector seat, unlike the 8v head.

The 16v is zero plane, angle of injector dosnt matter.

Its interesting your injectors are 153 degrees, as the bosch managed ones (35/40 head) run a different angle... DLLA or DSLA makes no odds in terms of fitting / working, just the way the nozzle works. Either will work, DSLA are more common these though...

The 153 degrees nozzle is from a friends Peugeot 307 2.0 hdi 16v ( RHR Siemens injection). I got the injector from him and found out that the RHR engines uses the nozzle at 153 degrees.
I am current using the DSLA 144 nozzles and injectors from the 4hx engine and think that my lack of power is related to this diference on spray angle, because I use the pistons from a RHR engine.

Today I took off one injector from my engine and fitted the siemens nozzle on the bosch injector, my surprise and car works just fine.

Any any help with this is pure gold for me, so much work time and effort on this and the engine is not producing

[Ruan]

I'm not 100% sure on the 153 meaning 153* - is it certain that the 153 definitely means 153*?

I've seen engines with far more "wrong" injectors than 144 vs 153 and they're making power fine, just a LOT of smoke and possibly detrimental to pistons at very high injection quantities.

[darrenjlobb]

Deffo the angle.

However i agree with Ruan, id be very suprised if you would even notice the injectors being 10 degrees out in terms of output at these power levels.. they tend to just blow smoke when you tune them hard / melt things when you really push them, I wouldnt expect it to make a serious issue at this stage...

[dashmader]

at full pedal car makes power and smoke, but under light throthle i notice that it doesnt make. to climb a little hill i need to put 60/70 iq to get over it.

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found this ones from Hyundai H-1 2.5 CRDi 16v

DLLA153P 1608 Bosch 0433 171 982 8x0,15x153° Nozzle CR

Should be zero plane angle

[Poodle]

Ok interesting, cheers.

[darrenjlobb]

Sounds like mapping to me, or some other issue...

[dashmader]

The mapping is ok I think. I have done mapping on my hdi for some time now and never had any issue. Injectors tables are from the 2.2 4hx engine so calibrations are correct. timing I tried my own soi from 8 V and then put the timing from a rhw engine and still the same.
Retarding SOI on light throttle car makes less power, advancing it become a little better. I think because advancing SOI, the pistons is farther from the nozzle and the spray is wider. Retarding SOI to around 0 ( stock SOI value on RHW engine) makes less power, I think because nozzle is close to piston and spray is narrow

[jammapic]

Dashmader,

That's right. You get a less homogeneous charge the lower SOI you use. Obviously at full load you can only go so far before head lift and knocking becomes an issue.

In my opinion, stick with the stock 16v SOI table, with slight further advancement at high IQ, just to keep the EOI nearer stock.

Other thing to bear in mind, is that with a 16v head, swirl quality is decreased until much higher rpm is reached - to counter this you'll need more boost to make the same power lower down.... 8v are always better through the low and mid range.

JP

[Ruan]

Other thing to bear in mind, is that with a 16v head, swirl quality is decreased until much higher rpm is reached - to counter this you'll need more boost to make the same power lower down.... 8v are always better through the low and mid range.

Unless you flip the swirl flaps, which generates even better swirl than the 8v!

[jammapic]

I believe he has removed them...

[dashmader]

I believe he has removed them...

yes they are removed

[dashmader]

arrived today one DLLA P153 1608 to test on my injector to see if everything works.

I tested with one inejector out of the engine to see the spray and if it sprays lol.

[dashmader]

ok, nozzles is tested on injector and the spary cloud on iddle is much bigger lol.

Put the injector and new nozzle on the car and it iddles ok but makes a bit white smoke, too much diesel from new nozzle. must get the other 3 to calibration injection timing

[dashmader]

The other 3 NOZZLES are coming lol. Wednesday they are in my hand to start making tests

[Uberderv]

Should be interesting

[dashmader]

got the set working, but it makes a bit white smoke.

did new map taking off 20% at duration and it got better, less white smoke but still a bit

[jammapic]

Is it still knocking badly when on the move? I suspect the duration table will need a fair bit of work to get right. I have the same thing when you stick big nozzles on the TDi's.

Lots of work on duration and timing needed round idle and light load, as different nozzles tend to atomise differently. Specifically the big TDi nozzles atomise a lot worse, due to the large hole size. Then at light loads, on the move, less advance as they deliver more fuel and less duration, then full throttle less advance again, but weird things happen with the durations so you need to work out how that specific nozzles responds.

It all depends on the characteristics of that particular injector and nozzle really as to how it behaves, but all I can say is, use your eyes, ears and nose to tune it. Not what you read on paper.

[dashmader]

Is it still knocking badly when on the move? I suspect the duration table will need a fair bit of work to get right. I have the same thing when you stick big nozzles on the TDi's.

Lots of work on duration and timing needed round idle and light load, as different nozzles tend to atomise differently. Specifically the big TDi nozzles atomise a lot worse, due to the large hole size. Then at light loads, on the move, less advance as they deliver more fuel and less duration, then full throttle less advance again, but weird things happen with the durations so you need to work out how that specific nozzles responds.

It all depends on the characteristics of that particular injector and nozzle really as to how it behaves, but all I can say is, use your eyes, ears and nose to tune it. Not what you read on paper.

--yes thank you for the input Mr. James.

--But today is much much better. Got some help from a friend on duration tables and now its completly diferent.

--i got no white smoke
-- car as much more power at same iq ( i was runing 50 iq ), now at 50 iq it feels a 90 HP car.
-- at light load it still knocks a bit, but after 2000/2500 rpm knock goes away.

--i need to do something to take off the knocking. but is not too much.

-- Maybe i have too much pre-injection quantity or bad preinjection timing??

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Specifically the big TDi nozzles atomise a lot worse, due to the large hole size. T.

-- this nozzles should atomize a lot better, the holes are smaller, stock is 0.18 plus 5 holes and this are 0.15 plus 8 holes.

[jammapic]

So total flow will be more... You'll need to turn the preinjection down.

[dashmader]

now engine is producing decent power. almost done the map but the test runs are very good.
it passes 5000 rpm like a rocket lolol.... Finally

[Uberderv]

well done, keep at it.