Oh great and wise HDI Gurus...

[Poodle]

If you can swap them with known-good items from a mates car then go for it, but don't start throwing money at it quite yet. There's a lot of guides out there for pp2000 issues, failing that someone may be able to supply a good copy of the software.

[Mattinthehat]

I know i need live data but as i said before pp2000 wouldn't work! Not having much luck atm and the live data is the difference between a £25 part and a £150 part! FML

i have the software already but no laptop all i have to go on are the fault codes :-(

[HDi--Power]

Its really not going to be a relay or the lp pump either, they would not produce the faults you describe

[mcglynn]

It could easily be the lift pump. Under load cant supply the right amount of fuel and therefore pressure drops and causes p0230.

More than likely your hp pump or faulty regulator though.

[Ruan]

Its really not going to be a relay or the lp pump either, they would not produce the faults you describe

You really do talk out your arse, don't you...

[Mattinthehat]

Ok so based on the fact that i cant get real time data atm and only have the fault codes to go on the logical procedure would be to start by replacing the lp pump then move onto the relay then hope it isnt either the FPR or hp pump

Would cleaning the MAF sensor help?

[Poodle]

So you bought pp2000 but don't have a laptop to load it onto...?

Relay or lp pump seem the more likely culprits tbh, else it wouldn't be so intermittent - the HP pump isn't likely to be able to make the pressure one minute and not the next. Have you actually checked anything other than the fpr yet? Done injector leak-off tests, had a look a the relay for signs of damage, checked the lp pump etc..? That's how diagnostics is done when the computers can't cope.

Cleaning the maf won't help, completely unrelated.

[HDi--Power]

Its really not going to be a relay or the lp pump either, they would not produce the faults you describe

You really do talk out your arse, don't you...

If I thought you had half the brain cells needs to form a valid opinion I might be offended by that

The symptoms clearly point to the hp pump circuit. Its 95% the pump 5% some wiring fault perhaps. it just wont be the lift pump or a relay I can promise you that

[Ruan]

Explain away...

Why does it point to HP pump circuit and not LP...

It could be either in equal proportions.

Obviously not the relay, but could easily be the LP pump.

[HDi--Power]

Because its cranking and cranking when it tries to start up, a lift pump dead enough to cause this would no be able to run the car at all. Its the hp struggling to hit 298 BAR, this is then confirmed by the fact a standard car is cutting out under load in 3rd and 4th gear, its a badly worn hp pump and if he were close to me I would fit one for free for him if it didn't fix it I am that sure.
I work on commonrails ever day, I see these issues all the time and it looks very clear cut

The reason it doesnt cut out each and every time is that there is quite difference allowed between requested vs actual pressure and it would be hard for a standard car even with a worn pump to hit such a difference, hotter fuel will significantly increase the difference. Map the car and I bet it will cut out every single time!

[Ruan]

Could quite easily be the lp pump... If there's a fault on the low pressure side, it'd struggle to build pressure also since the supply of fuel into the pump is low, once the hp pump speed is up and it's able to pump faster, it'll eventually start... If the hp pump is struggling to make 298bar with no injections, there's 100% no way it'd ever run, soon as the injectors run, it'd never be able to make the requested pressure, it'd instantly drop and be way under the request amount...

Essentially what you're telling me is that at no load, the hp pump is struggling to make enough pressure to start, yet eventually start and run and make at least more than the 300bar starting pressure and only sometimes cut out when driving which means it'll make 900+bar...

Seen this on multiple Hdis and my own.. Struggling to start, sometimes cuts under load, replace lift pump, problem solved... They're a known weak point, many many people have seen this issue it been solved with a Lift pump...

[toseland]

If I thought you had half the brain cells needs to form a valid opinion I might be offended by that

The symptoms clearly point to the hp pump circuit. Its 95% the pump 5% some wiring fault perhaps. it just wont be the lift pump or a relay I can promise you that

I find it always helps if, when trying to insult someone, you don't make an astronomical cockup and use obviously poor grammar.. because it just makes you look stupid

The word you were looking for, was needed. Not needs.


I am with raun on the lift pump. Common fault, cheap replacement, first port of call.

[Poodle]

Not being funny, but i'm not sure we want cowboy diagnostics in here. Just claiming it's the most expensive item every time without research doesn't benefit anyone, if you could allow us to resume proper diagnosis with the op i'd appreciate it.

[Mattinthehat]

Wowsers i had no idea my issue would raise such a heated debate - chill out guys or take your handbags into the car park

From research i have done on the net and what you guys have mentioned here it seems noone is any the wiser without proper diags (thanks Poodle) - as that isnt possible without me paying through the nose for it right now im going to side with replacing the lp pump - as HDI--power suggested, cheap part and readily available, will get one ordered on t'internet and let y'all know in a week when it arrives!!

So i have developed a further issue you can debate over in the meantime as i now you all love a good mass debate

Now its started a clacking noise in time with the engine at idle and revs, started a week ago and was intermittent and is now on all the time, after a while it does go away but its getting worse, performance is unchanged, seems to be coming from the bottom of the timing pulleys - is this the Vac pump as my mate suggested and if so is it fixable? cos between my air recirc flap and this its driving me nuts - its THE most annoying loud car i have ever had!! (fact its just like the missus, loud annoying a pain in the ass but looks hot and i love her lol)

[Toms306]

The Vac pump is on the other side of the engine, nearer the battery, so its not that.

Probably the crank pulley about to fall apart.

[toseland]

Wowsers i had no idea my issue would raise such a heated debate - chill out guys or take your handbags into the car park

From research i have done on the net and what you guys have mentioned here it seems noone is any the wiser without proper diags (thanks Poodle) - as that isnt possible without me paying through the nose for it right now im going to side with replacing the lp pump - as HDI--power suggested, cheap part and readily available, will get one ordered on t'internet and let y'all know in a week when it arrives!!

So i have developed a further issue you can debate over in the meantime as i now you all love a good mass debate

Now its started a clacking noise in time with the engine at idle and revs, started a week ago and was intermittent and is now on all the time, after a while it does go away but its getting worse, performance is unchanged, seems to be coming from the bottom of the timing pulleys - is this the Vac pump as my mate suggested and if so is it fixable? cos between my air recirc flap and this its driving me nuts - its THE most annoying loud car i have ever had!! (fact its just like the missus, loud annoying a pain in the ass but looks hot and i love her lol)

Credit to raun for the lo pump mate,

[Poodle]

Lol, HDi-power is insisting on the hp pump bud, Ruan's on the lp, i'm sitting on the fence until i know more. Have you had a look through the link in my sig? Some useful info in there, although i really should finish writing it...

As Tom suggests, noise from the driver's side of the bay is probably the crank pulley, loads of vids on youtube showing it if you want a reference.

[Mattinthehat]

ok so now it wont start at all even by shoving a load of combustible stuff down its neck, not tried a bump yet..... any thoughts...


Crank pulley - had a look at some youtube vids as per Poodles suggestion- yeah thats about right - great just what i need! was fairly sound when i bought it now its falling apart around my ears ffs!

Poodle - yeah your guide helped me get the lift pump out in the first place! cheers :-)

And props to RUAN for the lp pump suggestion - sorry was in a rush and didnt look earlier!

[Ruan]

Does it splutter when you put the usual combustibles down the intake?

For the record - I'm not saying it's NOT the HP pump - I'm simply saying it sounds absolutely typical of a LP pump...

As the old saying goes - if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck... Probably is one...

Are LP pumps a common failure point - yes.
Do LP pumps cause problems starting - yes.
Do LP pumps cause it to sometimes cut out under high load - yes.
Are LP pumps a cheap and easy item to replace - yes.

Are HP pumps a common failure point - no.
Do HP pumps cause starting problems - yes.
Do HP pumps cause cutting out under high load - yes - but not cause problems starting, then happily make 900+bar.
Are HP pumps a cheap and easy item to replace - no.

[Poodle]

Can you still hear the lift pump priming? How did you clean the fpr?

[Mattinthehat]

I removed the FPR and gave it a good squirt with Carb cleaner, let it air dry then stuck it back in - carefully - as per your guide Poodle

I think it may be the lp pump as when i tried to start it with combustibles it spluttered and tried then didnt even do that the couple of times i tried it afterwards plus the lp pump doesnt make the same sound like it did before i think it has actually died, normally you hear it making a whiring swooshing sound, this time it just sort of sounds like there is power going to it but not much else, doesnt sound like its lifting if that makes sense - ill give it another go later but ima have to tow it home - fortunately its only round the corner

I have a pump and a relay on order but will try get a pump today from the scrappers.

Also need to order a new crank pulley, may as well get a new belt and the timing done at the same time

The joy of pugs!

incidentally you might be interested to know my MPG for this shed is amazing! this last week i have done around slightly over 370 miles on £45 of diesel it works out at 49.6 mpg :-) hence why i dont want to get rid of it!

[Poodle]

Ok fair, was thinking it maybe needed another go, but sounds as if you've found te issue.

Tbh just buying a new lp pump is probably the better option, with a scrapper it could just die again in 6 months.

[Mattinthehat]

Ok so now heres where it gets a bit confusing....

Just went to pick it up and took the rear passenger seat out and removed the rubber cap so i could hear the pump better, primed it twice and the lp pump made a not very healthy noise, so thought i would give it some tlc and gave it a thump from the top, guess what....... it fired up first time, as i set off it was a bit like having kangaroo juice in the tank, it sort of stutters forward under acceleration in low revs and 1st, got it round the corner put my foot to the floor in 2nd and got over 3k revs without cutting out, same in 3rd, got it back switched it off and tried to start it again 3 times and it fired up pretty much 1st time on each attempt....

Im guessing its definitely lp pump problem then.... may have a go at cleaning the relay this aft too just to be on the safe side...

True what they say - 'if in doubt, give it a clout!'

[Ruan]

it just wont be the lift pump or a relay I can promise you that

Hmm

[Poodle]

Tbh if you fixed it by smacking the lift pump that's fairly conclusive. I take it the plug on top of the pump is fine, all connections clean etc?

[Niall]

may have a go at cleaning the relay this aft too just to be on the safe side...

The relay is simply a electronic on/off switch. I would check the condition of the pins. If there is any corrosion on them then clean it up (lighter fluid works best for getting that crap off) but if they are clean, there not really anything you can do with it. Most of the time it will either work or it won't.

[Mattinthehat]

Ok so after i posted the darned thing took an age to start again!! even after i clouted the pump, arrived at my destination and made a conscious effort to park it nearside on the kerb and facing downhill, came back to it a few hours later and hey presto fired up first time with no tlc given!

II think its pretty conclusive the pump has had it

Poodle - yeah mate everything is clean and gunk free, first thing i checked when i took the pump out the first time, the pump is not sounding good though definitely a marked difference in the sound its making from a couple of days ago to today which is a another indicator, im going to risk running it until my pump arrives either Tuesday or Wednesday - may take my jack too just to boost the car on an angle so i can get it started lol! I swear im the laughing stock as our car park is in the middle of 3 big office blocks and its always me shouting 'come on ya bitch!' and the car trying and trying to start that everyone can hear

Niall - didnt have chance to have a look this aft but i ordered one anyway (for £10 i dont mind just in case it is that)

A few people have said i should just get a new car and tbh i have considered it - but - i will not let it beat me, someone else has run this little pug into the ground not me, im going to make it better! Im determined plus im learning as i go so its all good

[Poodle]

Sounds all too familiar mate lol, i only had to do it in front of 7/8 people, but they're all mechanics so like to come over and make "helpful" suggestions. Tbf if this is the whole problem then i think you've done pretty well, even just the fpr is more expensive than the lift pump, let alone the rest of it.

[toseland]

its definately the HP pump then

[Mattinthehat]

ok so thought you guys may like an update as i KNOW your waiting with baited breath to see what the issue was....

I managed to purchase a known working lp pump and brown relay (to be on the safe side) from ebay from a very accommodating chap who let me have the both for £35 delivered and they arrived this morning...

Just installed my pump, gave it a prime and......








it started! and it started again and again after about 2/3 turns - oh yeah! mo more parking on kerbs for me!

Yet to test it under load & hard acceleration, im waiting for the traffic to die down a bit but so far its looking pretty good!