205 Hdi

[Uberderv]

Fantastic stuff, really enjoying reading this :-) Your doing a great job at solving/fabricating problems and bits needed. Your idea about mounting the chargecooler rad underneath would work well. I had the same setup on a 206 for a while and it seemed to work well even with the crappy Pace water pump pushing the coolant round.

I'm interested to see what the Insurance company say, I was planning on going with a classic insurance as it's 22 yrs old now.

[dieselgeek]

Interesting project! I would have used the XUD myself but each to their own! Will be awesome with a wide kit on it!

Your damn right, its a much better idea to use the xud

but..

I couldn't find a good turbo'd one, looked everywhere but they were all rotten, this one I got is an 'n' reg and only has rust in the bootfloor.

So I ended up with an xud7 with a good shell for £550, I had the 306 already so it cost less to use a DW10 than to turbo an xud11 and pop that in.

[Piggy]

I think rowell ment dropping a xud9 in!

[dieselgeek]

Fantastic stuff, really enjoying reading this :-) Your doing a great job at solving/fabricating problems and bits needed. Your idea about mounting the chargecooler rad underneath would work well. I had the same setup on a 206 for a while and it seemed to work well even with the crappy Pace water pump pushing the coolant round.

I'm interested to see what the Insurance company say, I was planning on going with a classic insurance as it's 22 yrs old now.

Thanks really enjoyed doing it!

Glad to see you had the same master cylinder problem as me, was really funny to read about someone else going through it, I was really worried about the whole project because of this at one stage.


Ahhh the underneath chargecooler rad has been done, you got a thread about it would love to have a read?
Even better would be if you still had the system and fancied selling it.........???

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I think rowell ment dropping a xud9 in!

Well.... yes but then I would've always know that I could have a bigger lump.
I do want to go the 2.1 route eventually if it will work, I beleive it makes a long stroke motor but I'm probaly remembering this wrong.

what I really want is your 350ftlb monster! If I can get 218hp reliably with only minor internals changed then I'll do it. But first gotta do the boring bits to make mr. mot man happy

[procta]

I think once you have the setup in place, then you can drop anything you like into it. After all its a 306 inside a 205.
make things as plug in play as possible, that's what i did with the metro, Dropped later electronics in so that i can have the later Alarm system in, also the later alarm system was coded to the engines ecu. So no messing about with cutting and bodging wires. All i had to do was swop the alarm units over with the coded unit and i was away.
Plus keeping it like that there is less question marks for problems,
technically my car is a R100 spi in a metro carb shell. So the engine loom was adapted for a R100 spi.
plug and play.

[dieselgeek]

Been away for xmas hence no recent updates. Hope you all had a nice holiday time etc.


So the key part of this conversion really is making the 306 subframe fit the 205 body so this is a loooong post! As with everything else on this car, its taken me a few times to get a system I'm happy with.

For various reasons the subframe has to be dropped slightly - the main reason being that the gearbox needs enough clearance on the lower inner wing section of body but also for clearance on lots of other bits and bobs. I went with a 25mm drop, this suited it but the main reason is that this meant the rear subframe mounts would be easy.
For the rear mounts I took the 306 subframe and cut out a small  rectangle around the mounting bolt holes, then chopped off the corresponding rear mounting part from the 205 subframe and welded it (very serious welding - its one piece of metal now, not just 2 stuck together!) above the 306 subframe.

So the 205 body shape is fitted correctly by the 205 subframe mounting part. The rectangular hole at the 306 rear mounts mean that you access the original bolt holes in the 205 subframe with a socket.
The part of the 205 subframe that I cut off is 25mm tall.

Still following? This is awkward to tryand explain so I've done a pikey diagram in paint (can't find the photos for this atm so will just take some next time I drop the subframe down).

The front subframe mounts were far more awkward and took a few attempts to get right. Basically I needed a spacer that was 25mm, with it first bolted to the body, and then the subframe bolted to the spacer. My first attempt was a solid block welded to the body with the subframe welded to the block - this is how I was driving the car originally as it was very quick to make. In reality just welding the subframe to the car was such a pikey bodge its embarrassing, but it meant I could go drive it and thats what it was all about at the time.....

When the mot ran out it was time to do it properly.
I needed something that was OEM in terms of removing the subframe for maintenance, and would pass a genuine mot. So I cut off the pikey 25mm block and was left with just the original body again and then started thinking about what to do....

So my next attempt was a bit of 25mm box section, bolted to the car then with the subframe bolted up. Once I was happy with this (in terms of bolt spacing and fitment) I took it apart and used it as a pattern to make a better one, working out how to make it stronger and oem looking.

My end result is custom made box section from high quality steel, couldn't get high enough quality box section (in terms of strength) so I had a professional welder get the highest quality 'L' section steel he could find and weld 2 parts together to make box section.
This is then bolted up to the car (I cut a small hole in the body big enough for a spanner and put nuts on the top of the bolts to add to the threads in the body section) and welded everything very sturdily in place, I then made upright supports and welded these to the box section and the body.

The piece of body which the subframe bolts to is a part which Peugeot spot weld (in only 6 places!) to the main body tub - so I seam welded this whole original section whilst I was there with the welder.

With the 25mm box section now part of the body I used body filler over the welds to make it look as smooth as the original body curves, then sanded down, painted, and waxoiled. It will be interesting to see if the filler stays keyed in with it being so close to constant vibrations from wheel and engine - or if it slowly breaks apart..

Then lifted the subframe up with everything attached and bolted it into place. (I use an engine crane attached to the subframe via straps through the strut top holes, this lfts it perfectly into place)
With the subframe in place I decided to weld an extra bit onto the subframe so I could bolt into the side of the box section as well as the underneath of it.
So both sides are finished to a standard I'm happy with. The subframe is removed using the standard bollts so you can still follow mr. haynes manual to remove it except for the addition of the two side mounting bolts.

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pic of front subframe mount with diagram/notes over top to try and explain it

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pic from front angle

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pic from front/side angle

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pic during welding, showing seam welding.
I'm using a clark gasless mig, its nothing like as neat as a gas welder but its very cheap to run and I can't justify the extra cost of gas just to make it look prettier. The fusion is just as good as long as your patient with it.

You can make out the circular marks from the original Peugeot spot welds.

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I spent a long time trying to build up with weld to make it smooth, but in the end resorted to filler just because I've been spending a fortune on mig wire.
This is with the filler before sanding down.

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Side on pic, showing extra 2 side bolts.

Its all really ugly with the waxoil  over it, should've taken pics after paint really when it was all shiny.

Note the brake line isn't up to MOT spec yet, will have to get round to having that firmly attached instead of rattling around on the mount.

[Poodle]

When you want to add pics at a certain point in the text box, put the text cursor in the desired spot, then click the green "add" button by your uploads. As per this pic:

[attachment=20870]

Love your work, can't wait to see the finished product.

[dieselgeek]

Steering Connection.

I'd originally used the full 205 steering column with the 306 rack, but the 205 end was splined and the 306 wanted a square taper style end. So the same as everything else I just welded it together to put her on the road. It was too long really, putting too extreme an angle on the uj's even with them slotted up the splines to reduce overall length. It needed a new solution to be correct and also to get rid of the weld that had replaced the bolt so that it could be removed in the oem way for any future maintenance.


After a lot of measuring and head scratching I've now got a system that uses the 205 column down to the 306 rack, this misses out one 'UJ' knuckle and short section of column which makes up part of the collapsible system.
Taking this out meant that I could use the 306 uj which had a square end for the rack, and the splined end to go onto ythe 205 column. Being Peugeot they hadn't changed the spline from the 205 to the 306 so it was a perfect fit, I slid the column down from the uj above the pedals to make some extra length, and the same at the bottom end of the spline. This meant that I had enough length for the square end of the uj to go onto the rack. It isn't quite long enough as you can see in the pic so at some point I will add a 'U' section to the bottom part of the uj to add some extra clamping section onto the square end of the rack.
Its alright as it is now tho, and I've fitted a sturdier bolt and double nylock nutted it just to be on the safe side. The downside is that I've lost one of the 3 sections that makes it a collapsible column, but I reckon its ok with 2 sections.

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When you want to add pics at a certain point in the text box, put the text cursor in the desired spot, then click the green "add" button by your uploads. As per this pic:



Love your work, can't wait to see the finished product.

Cheers Poodle, thats been pissing me off for ages trying to work out how to do it.

But now I've tried that it just seems to delete everything I've written and won't add more than one pic...?




This is the section of steering column that I've done without.

[procta]

A lot of engineering that is! so this is practically a re bodied 306 now.

[welshpug]

w t a f ?

that should not be on the road.

[Piggy]

This is all a bit worrying.
I assume it will need a proper check to be back on the road as with most engine swaps from a different model of car!? Or I hope so.

[dieselgeek]

A lot of engineering that is!  so this is practically a re bodied 306 now.

Not too far off now, all the major work is done but its all the little ballache jobs that are taking a long time now.

And I still don't know what to do about the rear arches. I just can't pull them out enough with the roller and I don't want to commit to pulling out the whole panel in case it looks shit.... Thinking I may have to settle for wheels with a different offset to bring them in towards the body, but hate the idea of doing all this work to widetrack the car and then making it narrower than its supposed to be...

Other option is big round universal arches but they really won't suit the square\slabby style of a 205...

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This is all a bit worrying.
I assume it will need a proper check to be back on the road as with most engine swaps from a different model of car!? Or I hope so.

Two ways of doing it really, register the engine conversion with the dvla so its a 2 litre then insure with suspension and other modifications declared.

Or SVA as a modified vehicle (on the points systems) and insure as a self build car from 2 donors, in which case it ends up being classed as a rebodied 306 and keeps the 306 registration.


Either way it will have someone double check everything, not that I'm worried as by trade I'm a mechanic and I originally qualified as a motorsport engineer! My brother is a coded welder and has watched over me as I learnt the mig.

For me the worrying bits have been finding the bits Peugeot didn't spend too long on.. like shit spot welds and thin metals in important places.. and poor design beam mounts that have a mild steel middle layer which rot in secret, heres a pic is of one of the original 205 beam mounts, the middle layer is rotten out and after taking the pic I twisted it hard and it pulled into two pieces... thats the sort of thing that worries me about standard cars with unknown histories. With a self build everything is checked and replaced.
Everything I'm doing is 'fs' spec want all my work to be the strong points on the car.

[procta]

This is all a bit worrying.
I assume it will need a proper check to be back on the road as with most engine swaps from a different model of car!? Or I hope so.

depends on the engine, as mine is a kseries car and all I did was drop another k series engine in, which basically mounts the same as the it does OEM. ( swop the engine mount over to the metro one and that was it)

[andyyy]

Nice work interested to see how this turns out

[darrenjlobb]

For me the worrying bits have been finding the bits Peugeot didn't spend too long on.. like shit spot welds and thin metals in important places.. 

Are you even for real?!

Correct me if im wrong here....but are you honestly going to be attaching your SUBFRAME with that?! I wouldn't attach an air freshener with that incase it fell off and annoyed me.... Sorry but holy jesus..... things like this shouldnt be anywhere near the road...


Genuinely Speechless......

[andyyy]

Didn't clock that before my last post lol was just looking at a hdi in a 205

[dieselgeek]

Are you even for real?!

Correct me if im wrong here....but are you honestly going to be attaching your SUBFRAME with that?! I wouldn't attach an air freshener with that incase it fell off and annoyed me.... Sorry but holy jesus..... things like this shouldnt be anywhere near the road...


Genuinely Speechless......

Have you not even realised that this photo was taken part way through doing the job!!!!!!!????????

Would you prefer it if I only posted one picture of the finished product, so you had no idea of what went on to achieve it?


Do you understand what welding is? Do you understand what fusion is? In laymans terms it means to turn two pieces into one piece. It can't fall anywhere because it is the same piece........ This is really very basic stuff.

If you'd paid any attention you'd also see that I've used the original bolts to fit it, so it is the original strength, plus the welding strength. It is very much one piece of metal, vastly stronger than the original section which wasdesigned for popping to the shops and back.


Obviously your not aware of the differences in appearance between mig and tig welding. It won't ever look like the lovely beading you get on custom made exhausts or similar products that use expensive tig setups, even with gas it would look more of a smooth smear, and you wouldn't like the look of that either!


You've obviously never done welding, or even seen it in progress.

I suppose the idea of welding in new sills scares you? Maybe they will fall off!?
What about people who seam weld entire shells to enhance rigidity? Maybe that will fall apart as well!

There will always be people that don't understand, but you should at least think about something before jumping in on it, then you might've realised that you don't know what your looking at.

Try and learn from it, even if you decide that its not something that you want...

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This is all a bit worrying.
I assume it will need a proper check to be back on the road as with most engine swaps from a different model of car!? Or I hope so.

depends on the engine, as mine is a kseries car and all I did was drop another k series engine in, which basically mounts the same as the it does OEM. ( swop the engine mount over to the metro one and that was it)

Procta did you bother re-registering?

I know most people don't bother but I fancy doing it legally this time, wouldn't wanna get in trouble for a car that will only get used on sunday mornings

[darrenjlobb]

Are you even for real?!

Correct me if im wrong here....but are you honestly going to be attaching your SUBFRAME with that?! I wouldn't attach an air freshener with that incase it fell off and annoyed me.... Sorry but holy jesus..... things like this shouldnt be anywhere near the road...


Genuinely Speechless......

Have you not even realised that this photo was taken part way through doing the job!!!!!!!????????

Would you prefer it if I only posted one picture of the finished product, so you had no idea of what went on to achieve it?


Do you understand what welding is? Do you understand what fusion is? In laymans terms it means to turn two pieces into one piece. It can't fall anywhere because it is the same piece........ This is really very basic stuff.

If you'd paid any attention you'd also see that I've used the original bolts to fit it, so it is the original strength, plus the welding strength. It is very much one piece of metal, vastly stronger than the original section which wasdesigned for popping to the shops and back.


Obviously your not aware of the differences in appearance between mig and tig welding. It won't ever look like the lovely beading you get on custom made exhausts or similar products that use expensive tig setups, even with gas it would look more of a smooth smear, and you wouldn't like the look of that either!


You've obviously never done welding, or even seen it in progress.

I suppose the idea of welding in new sills scares you? Maybe they will fall off!?
What about people who seam weld entire shells to enhance rigidity? Maybe that will fall apart as well!

There will always be people that don't understand, but you should at least think about something before jumping in on it, then you might've realised that you don't know what your looking at.

Try and learn from it, even if you decide that its not something that you want...

Erm...........


I'm actually being 100% serious in my last post....It makes no odds who I am / what my skills are, although I think to any member that's been here more than 5 minutes, will know very well that I use a welder on a daily basis, MIG, Arc, whatever, I know what a welder is, but it really makes no odds... If at ANY point of a welding job, it looks like that, things are NOT going well... There is next to 0 penetration going on there, and tbh, there isnt even alot of pigeon shit on the surface doing anything...covering the job in grease / sealer isn't going to make it stronger... 

This is a critical part of the car...which involves keeping YOU alive, and other road users... 

Just pointing out my view, but holy hell, if i'm on my own here, god help anyone that has to drive near by!!

[Niall]

[Ruan]

I'm just going to say that I do know welding enough to be an armchair critic.... My verdict is that the subframe is going to fall off!

That is simply weld layed on top, there is absolutely no penetration whatsoever - the metal is held there simply by the bits of weld surrounding it... It doesn't matter if it's "part way" through the job or "completed" - if your welding looks like that at any stage, there are problems.

Infact I'm not a good welder myself, I'll never profess to be good, but I do know when to give it to someone who is decent at it - I'm all for people learning, but bloody hell, not on the subframe mounts...

[procta]

I didn't tell DVLA yet, I told the insurance about every little thing that I did to the car. As I wanted to be legal that way, in case anything happened. As long as you declare the full lot to the insurance you will be ok.
As not telling the insurance is naughty, one metro owner dropped a vvc engine in his metro gti and didn't bother his arse to tell the insurance about it. He must have been doing something daft as the old bill pulled him over, and the copper asked him to pop the bonnet! He had a mems3 vvc engine which doesn't display the vvc on the inlet, But the copper had a lotus elise vvc and clocked the side cam for the vvc system. The copper checked the insurance and found he hadn't told them about the vvc engine. So they impounded the car there and then and told him to sort the insurance out.

Also a mate of mine got pulled over with his metro vvc, but that was about 2 am in the morning, He was leaving a mates unit, in an industrial estate. I think that might have been a check to see if he had been drinking, The old bill asked questions on what he had been up to etc, Ran a check on his car, Saw it insured as vvc and that was it,
My mate asked him about the tax, the copper said as long as its all declared to the insurance, taxed and moted. There isn't a bother, he said the main thing is people not telling the insurance about engine conversions and having a crash.

[andyyy]

I do a fair bit of welding for work and on cars for my self im not the best welder in the world but I know my way around a mig and a arc and I can tell a good weld from a bad one. 

That is shocking hence everyones reactions.

I'm actually supprised your defending that "welding" 

As you say welding is the fusion of two metals into one 

What you have done there is stuck two bits together with a thin layer of brittle metal over the top,  might aawell of used aryldite would be about the same strength, IE you haven't fused the bits of metal together at all

What you need to do is grind that all back, turn the amps up till it blows through and then back off a tiny bit and adjust the wire speed to suit. As the amps are too low I think the wire speed looks low aswell I'd also do it in spots doing one at the top left then bottom right then bottom left then top left and so on till all the spots join up that will be properly strong and you won't risk warping the metal, you won't of done that don't worry you never got it hot enough in the first place.  

Just trying to help don't take it the wrong way everyone has to start somewhere 

[procta]

I do a fair bit of welding for work and on cars for my self im not the best welder in the world but I know my way around a mig and a arc and I can tell a good weld from a bad one. 

That is shocking hence everyones reactions.

I'm actually supprised your defending that "welding" 

As you say welding is the fusion of two metals into one 

What you have done there is stuck two bits together with a thin layer of brittle metal over the top,  might aawell of used aryldite would be about the same strength, IE you haven't fused the bits of metal together at all

What you need to do is grind that all back, turn the amps up till it blows through and then back off a tiny bit and adjust the wire speed to suit. As the amps are too low I think the wire speed looks low aswell I'd also do it in spots doing one at the top left then bottom right then bottom left then top left and so on till all the spots join up that will be properly strong and you won't risk warping the metal, you won't of done that don't worry you never got it hot enough in the first place.  

Just trying to help don't take it the wrong way everyone has to start somewhere 

thanked for the advice on welding, what welder do you have? as I am looking at getting a better one that I can control the amps. the one I have doesn't really let you sadly.

[Paul_13]

Death trap

Seriously if you are not taking our advice, you're seriously messed in the head.

You WILL kill yourself/someone else driving that

That UJ don't look too clever either

[Niall]

Good point Paul that UJ Should be much further onto the rack

[Ruan]

Holy shit-to-f*ck I hadn't even seen the steering UJ - with the amount of "dynamic" movement that subframe is going to have - that UJ looks perilously close to coming detached..

Seriously dude, we're saying this for your own sake - that is NOT safe by any means!

[Niall]

Also, whats with the two nylons on it? Reusing old ones?

[Piggy]

Just lol, mega lol, at this guy picking a fight with DARREN over welding and engineering....

I am NO welder, but I weld regularly. With a £75 non gas mig. And I get better results with that than these. I think my 'tack' welds are better than that.

[andyyy]

I do a fair bit of welding for work and on cars for my self im not the best welder in the world but I know my way around a mig and a arc and I can tell a good weld from a bad one. 

That is shocking hence everyones reactions.

I'm actually supprised your defending that "welding" 

As you say welding is the fusion of two metals into one 

What you have done there is stuck two bits together with a thin layer of brittle metal over the top,  might aawell of used aryldite would be about the same strength, IE you haven't fused the bits of metal together at all

What you need to do is grind that all back, turn the amps up till it blows through and then back off a tiny bit and adjust the wire speed to suit. As the amps are too low I think the wire speed looks low aswell I'd also do it in spots doing one at the top left then bottom right then bottom left then top left and so on till all the spots join up that will be properly strong and you won't risk warping the metal, you won't of done that don't worry you never got it hot enough in the first place.  

Just trying to help don't take it the wrong way everyone has to start somewhere 

thanked for the advice on welding, what welder do you have? as I am looking at getting a better one that I can control the amps. the one I have doesn't really let you sadly.

I have two migs and a arc 

Cant really use a arc welder on car panels it can be done but it's not worth the agro and the end result is usually poor 

One of my migs is perfect for welding car panels as the amps go right down to 30 and up to 180 but that one has been knacked for about 3 years now 

So I use my other one which isn't ideal as the lowest it will go is 150a and up to 450a big old girl but if I'm quick and careful it's useable 

If the amps aren't adjustable then just hold it in the same place longer when doing spot welds to get the heat into it, practice on some scrap sheets

I can't really comment on the UJ as I don't know much about it but if Paul Ryan and Niall are saying its wrong it is. 

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PS I do not profess to be the greatest welder in the world there are lots of people better than me some have comment on this topic I'm sure. If anything Iv said is wrong or you'd do it differtly please correct me. I'm just trying to help this guy before he hurts himself or worse someone else!

[Niall]

I know its not a very good image but if you zoom in, you can see that the UJ is almost at the base of the rack shaft here which is how it should be. I promise if you don't get that fixed, you will loose steering sooner or later. Just think how much force is applied to turn the wheels and look how small a area you're putting that on.
I know it probably seems like we are just mocking your work but were only doing it because we don't want to see you in prison for killing someone when this all goes big time wrong!