Project Daily Sigma (16V TU)

[darrenjlobb]

Ohh thats a start then, just need to figure which bosch part is the CORRECT item now!

[Niall]

Give me 5

---

Right, the Bosch part number is 0258003717. The Peugeot part number is 1628 HT and you can get a genuine Bosch one Here for £63.87 Or you can pay Peugeot £176.30 for the privilege of taking the same part and putting it in a box with the Peugeot logo on it

[darrenjlobb]

Niall - You are my hero, thank you.

Will that have the correct plug on it?

[Niall]

It will. Thats a direct replacement part

Also I've just realised its the same part as the one for the GTi6 and i have a genuine virtually new one here so if your want, i can bring it to pugfest for you if your going so you can try it out before you buy one and then realise thats not the issue?

[darrenjlobb]

Niall ill PM you / avoid spamming this thread, thanks again.

[Dave]

16v management.....

Had plugs out already, appear to be clean and "normal" from what i could see...Just trying to figure out of its possibly an ECU drive issue, ground issue, or power issue?

Im a diesel head really, so "common" issues arnt so common to me!

This makes me laugh,

the reverse would be someone having a misfire on starting and not checking glowplugs hehe

[darrenjlobb]

Bit of an update to this...

Still got the idle on going saga....

Niall was kind enough to post me his new labmda (which is the correct one for this engine) to see if it made any difference... Oh the fun and games....

Basically before fitting, i had the bosch lambda from the 8v connected...in this setup, the car wouldnt idle at all, other than very occasionally when it randomly managed to catch it with the ICV and work..but a quick throttle up and it would die... but basically everytime you come to idle it will just die, which is a pain in the daily, living with it for now but id really like to fix it... however bar the idle, it ran seemingly ok, I mean ive not dyno'ed it or anything, but appears to pull well, for what it is..

Anyway, fitted the new lambda, and as far as i can tell, there is no changed to the idle at all, behaves identically to before... (have left ecu unplugged for an hour also)...HOWEVER it has a new problem, in that once its warmed up, on "cruise" at mid rpm, it will just start dying on you, and putting your foot down does nothing and nothing until your almost WOT and then it suddently kicks in / is fine again...dosnt seem to effect WOT, just mid range cruising, very odd as didnt do this at all on the old sensor...not sure if its killing spark / fuel, or just leaning / riching it out so bad that it dosnt run hence WOT goes back to base map / bypass lambda and work again? thats my thought anyway??

So the saga goes on, it works, but it dosnt...

The only other weird thing ive found, is that if you unplug the ICV, start it, it will obviously idle (albeit high) due to the static half open position of the ICV, however, if you then plug the ICV IN WHILE its running, after about 40 seconds, the ecu seems to notice it, and bring the idle down...the car then idles like a DREAM, can rev it up / try to stall it, and it always recovers and has a nice steady idle at correct rpm...however after 5-10 minutes of idling, it will just start to splutter and cough, and eventually die, same as if you drive it, works ok for a few minutes, but then you come to a halt and it dies, and thats it, no more idle...unplugging it / repeating the process makes it do just the same...Looking in PP2000, it seems that when you do this, the ICV goes to a fairly closed position, and injection is quite short, but then as its idling, fueling starts increasing, and ICV starts opening, bit at a time (as it would if its getting richer)....From what i can see, the issue is that it keeps doing this richer and richer thing, compensating air with the ICV until eventually the ICV cant open anymore...and thats the point it dies at....

Question is, what on earth is causing this behaviour?

[welshpug]

any odd signals from the MAP or TPS when this is happening?

[darrenjlobb]

During the idle or random loss of midrange?

This random midrange issue by the way has only started with this new lambda it "drove" perfectly before just wouldnt idle...

[welshpug]

whenever really.

also wondering if the fuel pump could be at fault? though as far as I can recall only the 1360 306 has a different pump, anything larger engined uses the same bare unit, got a pressure gauge to hand?

[darrenjlobb]

Ive not tested fuel pressure...but given it seems to pull well WOT, i assumed it must be ok? Theres plenty of fuel running down the return at idle...so deffo cant see it effecting the idle, its something that ive not checkd though, still confused as to why changing the lambda has thrown up this issue, given technically the new lambda is correct and the old one was not!

[darrenjlobb]

Bit of an update to this.....

Well firstly, this stupid thing is driving me so insane, I'm like a flys cock width away from dumping the petrol and putting an oem xud in it because its making me that mad!!

Im STILL suffering from no idea, and random midrange issues ill try to explain the full symptoms....which seem different although slightly linked...

So problem one, the ongoing idle problem.....So if you start the car with no idle, it just splutter etc and conk out, so you always start with throttle, will fire up, no problems at all, revs etc no issue...but let it come to idle, and it will just run right down straight away and cut out...however if you are very carefull with throttle and veryyyyyy slowly bring it down to idle (as in over 20 seconds slowly) it will idle, and once its idling, will happily sit there for 4-5 minutes...however after 4-5 minutes, it will start loping / spluttering, more and more, until it evntually conks out...to me sounds like its getting richer and richer until ICV runs out of range then it dies..also, if during the idling, you so much as breath on the throttle pedal, it will drop down and conk out.

The second problem is an intermittent problem (worth noting the idle problem is constant, its never idled ever correctly). So you can drive it all day, without a single issue other than lack of idle at times, but then other times you can be half way through your drive, and out of no where, the center 90% of pedal travel stops working, or at least, if your at cruise, it will just die off, loose all power (with pops / farts), so you start putting your foot further down...and no matter how far you go down, it wont start pulling again until your at 95-100% wide open throttle, then it will just suddenly spring back into action, and start accelerating (albeit down on power imo compared to normal)...sometimes this will happen constantly during your drive, sometimes just once, and sometimes never...
For example on a 2.5 hour drive at the weekend, it was broken the ENTIRE way up...had to drive constantly either WOT or slowing down....got there, parked up, left in the evening, first 2 miles just the same, then conked out at a junction (normal with no idle) fired back up, and drive PERFECTLY the entire way home, full power, not a single problem other than lack of idle, didnt touch anything.....

As you can imagine, this really is driving me insane, given im used to boosting dervs with 60psi, and i cant get a simple near enough stock engine to run correctly in the bloody car!

I have done the following, to of which NOTHING has made any difference to anything....

ECU - Replaced TWICE, so total of 3 ecus, all 3 do exactly the same, no change what so ever, all 3 are unlocked.

Injectors - Replaced for another set, no change, so put orignals back

ICV - Replaced for known good second hand, no change, so then replaced with brand new (NOT genuine, but thougth good enough to rule it out) again, NO change

TPS - Replaced for known good, no change (Do i need to buy a brand new one? Could this be at cause?

Map sensor - Replaced for brand new,no change

Temp sensor - Replaced for brand new, no change

Flywheel sensor - Replaced for 100% working one, no change

Engine wiring loom - Removed, re soldered every single connection I had to make, re taped and fitted, no change.

Lamba sensor - Tried 5 sensors, including the current one which is Nialls nearly brand new one....no change

Coilpack - Replaced with ford unit + HT leads.

The engine is just serviced / new plugs / new leads / new cambelt / waterpump / thermostat / clutch / newmans cams.

Ive pretty much replaced every single part of the system, and nothing seems to have effected anything...

Does anyone have any last ideas before I pull it back out and replace with something else, I really dont want to, I know im a derv head, but its nice to have something a bit different for a change, and its a great little engine to drive once it works...but im totally out of ideas and the ammount of money im spending on silly little sensors is adding up, and the entire point of a stupid little cheapy petrol is to stop me wasting money on the damn dervbus!!!

Cheers n gone!

[welshpug]

Charcoal canister valve might be giving issues, check the solenoid valve, if its stuck open it'll be placing the tank under negative pressure which would mess up the fuelling.

[James]

Do yourself a favour and pile it into a tree or sumat,

If only there was a reliable perv on your farm which only needs a little bit of work!

[darrenjlobb]

Charcoal canister valve might be giving issues, check the solenoid valve, if its stuck open it'll be placing the tank under negative pressure which would mess up the fuelling.

Interesting post, my charcoal canister valve is current totally dissconnected....its plumbed up, but no wiring to it, I thought this wasnt needed, was instructed to "Sack it off"....so id imagine its just closed all the time? is this a problem? Can the fuel tank breath without it?

Do yourself a favour and pile it into a tree or sumat,

If only there was a reliable perv on your farm which only needs a little bit of work!

Haha, will MOT that ZX 16v that seems to be lying around in my yard soon if this dosnt sort itself out!!

[rocker8742]

Checked your raccoon filter?

[welshpug]

that zx is worth sorting before this IMO :p

[darrenjlobb]

that zx is worth sorting before this IMO :p

Lol no because this is my daily driver and that is not!!

No more ideas people? Its doing my nut, can you tell?

[Piggy]

fuel pressure???

[ADV_93]

106 1.3 Rallye gearbox would be a laugh! Failing that i'm sure the 1.5 NAD boxes off 106's go well with VTS engines?

[Dave]

Whats it like with the petrol cap off? I think an XUD should be going in this tbh...

[C2K]

A very interesting project Darren, kudos for trying something different. Unlucky that you've had some teething problems, but persevere and it will reward you i'm sure.

It's a nice example that.

[Dean]

You say temp sensor, which one? Water or air? Can't quite remember if they have an air temp sensor or not. Charcoal canister won't cause misfire.

[Dean]

What tps you using?
If it's a pf1c it may be the incorrect one.
Try the pf2c/00 magnetti marelli tps. Sounds daft I know but the internals are slightly different and can cause this.

[Dean]

Also could be fuel pressure regulator , or the fuel pump itself?

[andyyy]

used to have one of these in a 106 run fine without lambda sensors plugged in
Could be mapsensor, idle control valve and had a very similar issue which turned out to be a dying ecu
I also have a mf2 kit for one of these that I need rid of if your interested can be used as a piggyback to run fueling for a turbo if you ever wanna turbo it and don't wanna spend loads on remaps

[Dean]

He's changed map, ICV and 3 ecu's.

[luke306rallye]

Try standard cams?

[darrenjlobb]

Ok...

So, after driving this for months and months, its done 15k now on the 16v engine, and yep, it still didnt idle...become so used to it , its become normal, however, its just embarrassing when anyone wants to borrow the car / just in general, it really has been getting on my nerves! So was waiting for some parts for air / hydrolic systems on the cummins project, so decided to stuff it, and swap the cams out in the daily, to see if that fixes it, afterall, I have changed every other part of the damn thing to no effect...

So swapped out the shafts:





And put it back together again:



Should note, this entire procedure from driving in to driving out, took less than 30 minutes, the TU really is a beauty to work on.

Anyway, changed them, turned the key, and, well, my life was suddenly complete, fired right up, idles perfectly, can do whatever, and it will always come back and idle...

So lesson learned is just because members of 106owners and saxperiance say "Newmans ph3's are fine without a remap" dosnt mean to say they do....or at least, there idea of "idles fine" is quite different to mine!!

So one would assume its all good news and everything is great...which it is...except....


The one major issue, is that the car now drives like a boring, stock, tame, linear, smooth, petrol..Obviously I'm a derv man at heart, HOWEVER this car has shown one thing to me, and that is that a super light engine / revvy little block genuinely is a fantastic car for taking for a hoon, BUT its at this point, I've realized how much of that, was due to the camshafts!!! Its now just become very tame, smooth and slightly boring to drive, even hard, it just isnt fun anymore, not lairy at all, and the top end just "happens" now, instead of "happening"...

So the issue I have is, do I just behave, leave it well the hell alone, sell the shafts on ebay and enjoy driving a car that works (given I have so many other projects to sort out!) or do I re fit the cams, and get it mapped so i get the best of both worlds? In the later situation, where would people recommend me taking it, given im based in Cornwall?

Yes, I have considered bolting a blower to it, but I must resist, as under all circumstances this car must remain 100% reliable, which it always has to this day, its never let me down!

I think really the shafts should be put on ebay before any more trouble is allowed to commence! But please do let me know your thoughts

[Ruan]

That would appear to have answered that question.