The 2.1 Sedan. scrapped

[rd070707]

Needs slammed on minilites :p

[ozonehostile]

so, several things have happened since i decided to keep the old girl, firstly it attended FCS which was nice, im so used to the 2.1 under the bonnet now that I don't think anything of it anymore, was nice to see people looking at it and taking pictures

im sure the videos will appear soon, but after a few kind donations the sedan went on the dyno at fcs mainly for the coal lols, it made 134.8bhp lol, definatly a result to be taken with a pinch of salt however as it was running on veg at the time and has the worlds most restrictive exhaust lol

did a quick bonnet swap with dum dum at fcs, much prefer the new bonnet with the lion

[Piggy]

that bhp is way too low to be accurate too!!

freaking me out all this clutch slip...anyone got a paddle clutch for me to buy??

[samass]

Zac, did they tell you what the torque was?

[ozonehostile]

that bhp is way too low to be accurate too!!

freaking me out all this clutch slip...anyone got a paddle clutch for me to buy??

buy one new dude, about £150 and you know it will take the abuse.

but on the subject of the dyno result, the turbo is wound all the way out, no more thread on the arm atall, the pump is completely maxed out to the point where a fraction of a turn more and it runs away, loads of lda tweeks and clutch slip in 4th gear at full boost (22psi)

[Piggy]

£150?? I cant find less than 250!!

[ozonehostile]

Zac, did they tell you what the torque was?

i have the printout here, about 235ft/lb

il upload the graph now

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[Dum-Dum]

That graph is f*cked doing the calculations back.

Your peak bhp is shown at 3600rpm as 135bhp and at that point the torque is about 210lb/ft but doing the maths 210lb/ft at 3600 would be 144bhp and its out all the way along wherever you do the maths.



Also if you assume that the torque curve is the right shape and that the clutch slips at about 280lb/ft then at 3600 (peak bhp) youd actually be making 250-260lb/ft and thats about 175bhp

[Piggy]

so guessing would really be more accurate!!

we all had been saying 150ish, so thats probably confirmed it in some way

[jammapic]

Why do we think that graph is wrong? Revs look about right to me? Or does it rev more than that?

JP

[ozonehostile]

It revs to 5k

[Dum-Dum]

Why do we think that graph is wrong? Revs look about right to me? Or does it rev more than that?

The car does rev longer but I think they were letting off before they got there as it was past peak power.
I actually think the shape of the torque curve is about right and if the graph was stretched across the whole page it would look like a really nice progressive powerband which is what it feels like to drive.

The graph is wrong because it makes nowhere near the torque it makes on the road (there's 50lb/ft missing) and the maths is wrong, pick any point in the rev range and the torque there and do the maths back to work out the bhp and it will be wrong, by several bhp on the ones i did.


Also the relative humidity is almost certainly wrong as it was a humid day and just starting to rain and im not entirely confident with the barometric pressure either.

[jammapic]

Why is the torque wrong? Clutch slip? That's the only real thing the dyno can measure....

If that torque was right we could easily excel up a correct one to work out the values...........

[cwspellowe]

Why is the torque wrong? Clutch slip? That's the only real thing the dyno can measure....

If that torque was right we could easily excel up a correct one to work out the values...........

^^This

Just wondering where this 280lbft figure comes from? Bum dynos can be deceiving.

[Dum-Dum]

Why is the torque wrong? Clutch slip? That's the only real thing the dyno can measure....

If that torque was right we could easily excel up a correct one to work out the values...........

Torque is wrong because they weren't applying enough dyno load. IIRC its something to do with "ramp angles" which is the rate at which the dyno increases the resistance on the rollers and thus the load on the car. Because there isn't enough load the car cant spool the turbo properly, the LDA dosen't drop as quickly and so there's less fuel to spin the turbo and we go round in one big circle.

The dyno operator said it wasn't slipping the clutch and you can see that from the power curve.

Just wondering where this 280lbft figure comes from? Bum dynos can be deceiving.

It slips a standard DT valeo, they slip at about 280lb/ft thus the car because it slips the clutch on the road can be assumed to be making 280lb/ft.

[jammapic]

That's in shootout mode 4, which is for naturally aspirated petrol 4 cylinders, however, the ramp rate is at 100 - which is really high.. Normally you'd run 10/15/20 ramp rate for an N/A petrol. So 100 ramp rate is set high to load it up more as it's a diesel. The operator has actually changed that to suit.

JP

[cwspellowe]

I can understand that happening with Dave's as he has two much bigger blowers on it, but the blower on this isn't much bigger than a T2 is it? Wouldn't have thought it would make THAT big a difference personally. Just IMO.

[ozonehostile]

The main thing I learned from the dyno Is how badly it needs a straight through, all you could hear exhaust note wise was the sound of gas trying to escape, just hissing rather than an actual tone

[jammapic]

Guys, I suspect the torque is right. Looks like the dyno is indeed setup right looking at the grid at the bottom right.

However, if they haven't got the revs right - the BHP will be way off.

I've mocked up an excel copy of your dyno plot.

What DOES is genuinely rev to? Do we know? If we know that I can adjust the bottom axis to recalculate, then I'll post.

JP

[ozonehostile]

It will rev to 5k, doesn't like it but it does make power upto that point, I've never dare take it further than that

[jammapic]

OK, so a copy of their graph, laid out properly:

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and assuming they did set the RPM wrong...

[Dum-Dum]

That's in shootout mode 4, which is for naturally aspirated petrol 4 cylinders, however, the ramp rate is at 100 - which is really high.. Normally you'd run 10/15/20 ramp rate for an N/A petrol. So 100 ramp rate is set high to load it up more as it's a diesel. The operator has actually changed that to suit.

Yeah should be mode 4F. Ramp rate was the term not ramp angle lol. The ramp can still go higher. I might be wrong but i think the ramp rate number actually means different things in different modes so RR100 is less load in mode 4 than RR100 in 4F

I can understand that happening with Dave's as he has two much bigger blowers on it, but the blower on this isn't much bigger than a T2 is it? Wouldn't have thought it would make THAT big a difference personally. Just IMO.

It still makes a difference if its spinning up marginally too quickly, its why you cant make full boost in lower gears because there isnt enough load for long enough to spool it. This is why we test boost in 4th and why the dyno should run in 4th

Guys, I suspect the torque is right. Looks like the dyno is indeed setup right looking at the grid at the bottom right.

Cant be if its not slipping the clutch on the dyno but does on the road.

[jammapic]

I don't buy it. Ever car I've ever dyno'd, diesel or petrol for a pure power run does not get loaded up as heavily as on the road. You just don't need to. NExt time you run a car on the dyno, watch how fast it accelerates.

Even if the clutch slips on the road, it does not necessarily mean it's making more torque...

I've had cars right on the edge of clutch slip which are fine on the flat, but slip uphill... I'm pretty sure I make the same torque whether I'm going up or down hill!

JP

[cwspellowe]

Plus there's the fact that yes, in lower gears you don't hit peak boost, but I can pin the wastegate in 3rd upwards ever when driving downhill. So unless it's a monster blower like Dave's I don't see why it wouldn't spool on a dyno.

[Piggy]

that second corrected graph looks about right to me

[ozonehostile]

in other news, it was the mot today (which ran out on the 9th....oops!) failed because of excessive play in n/s droplink and ultra high reading on smoke particle test, what I expected lol. only advisories for a low tyre and oil leak

tester didn't even pick up on the fact that it wasn't the stock motor haha

[Ruan]

Huh?? This car loaded up fine on the dyno, it's a stock turbo 2.1!! The graph is fine, as I said to Zakk, it's simply the exhaust making that crap figure, had the pipe come off that'd have made 150hp...

Daves T04e 306 is a completely different kettle of fish here...

The car will never rev as high on the dyno, that's all to do with the pump, on the spot or in lower gears it'll happily hit 5000, but get it up in 4th and it'll never see 5000rpm without you literally holding it past 4500, but you'd be there all year... The governor reaches equilibrium as the revs raise, torque drops so you eventually don't have enough torque in a higher gear to pull it past whatever rpm... Hence just stopping, they'd have heard on the dyno the power was dying for fast so just lifted..

[Piggy]

in other news, it was the mot today (which ran out on the 9th....oops!) failed because of excessive play in n/s droplink and ultra high reading on smoke particle test, what I expected lol. only advisories for a low tyre and oil leak

tester didn't even pick up on the fact that it wasn't the stock motor haha

technically he did....coz of the smoke reading!!!

how can you not hear the knocking droplink? they annoy the hell outa me!

[ozonehostile]

in other news, it was the mot today (which ran out on the 9th....oops!) failed because of excessive play in n/s droplink and ultra high reading on smoke particle test, what I expected lol. only advisories for a low tyre and oil leak

tester didn't even pick up on the fact that it wasn't the stock motor haha

technically he did....coz of the smoke reading!!!

how can you not hear the knocking droplink? they annoy the hell outa me!

I knew about it, just thought I would put it in for an mot ASAP seeing as it ran out a month ago lol. Not bad though, just one droplink and emissions, easiest fix ever lol

[Piggy]

I actually didnt think droplnks were fail able items...only advisories. meh. get it sorted anyway!

And mate, theres some pretty awesome racing/tuning companies round hereford, with rolling roads, get it booked in and get some accurate figures to stop us all arguing