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+--- Thread: Valve/lifter problems. (/showthread.php?tid=10514)
RE: Oh Shit. - Jonny81191 - 06-02-2013
(06-02-2013, 07:53 PM)Dum-Dum Wrote: What bottom pulley do you have on there?
When my very first bottom pulley went it hurt the belt and also killed a couple of lifters but to the stage where the car wouldnt run so i suppose its a possibility.
Solid aluminium one that you fitted....
So is it possible that one or more lifters have failed? Not really clued up on them TBH, I'll get digging.
RE: Oh Shit. - Ruan - 06-02-2013
Definitely sounds like valve issues...
I'm worried that somehow the head is being starved of oil - that sounds TYPICALLY like when an XUD has been dry of oil for a long time, the valves sieze down and make that horrible noise of running on three cylinders...
As soon as that happens it sounds like the ECU kills the engine though, it seems to realise that shit has hit the fan and kills the engine...
What's the max boost you've thrown at that engine?
I wouldn't be surprised if it's a shagged lifter, as Darren said, you sure it's got loads of oil in?
RE: Oh Shit. - Jonny81191 - 06-02-2013
The more I read into this, the more I tend to agree. Bugger.
Erm, max boost was probably 25-30 PSI, but only VERY briefly (2-3 seconds, no more) before I noticed. Consistently? About 20 PSI.
RE: Oh Shit. - Ruan - 06-02-2013
Next point of call IMHO is rip the rocker cover off and start having a gander...
If needs be, fire it up with the rocker cover off and see if you can see any issues... There's gotta be one cylinder doing it, it's definitely an inlet valve, if you can get enough reach, stick a screwdriver on the inlet runner and see if you can listen to which cylinder it is?
RE: Oh Shit. - Dum-Dum - 06-02-2013
(06-02-2013, 07:57 PM)Jonny81191 Wrote: Solid aluminium one that you fitted....It wont be pulley related then, what ruan was saying about too much boost is potentially right though.
RE: Oh Shit. - Jonny81191 - 06-02-2013
(06-02-2013, 07:56 PM)darrenjlobb Wrote: If you start it, rev it out so it does that, then soon as it dies dissconnect something so it wont start and crank it, see if it cranks even or if valves are stuck, need to be quick tho as there likely sticking briefly.
It makes a noise when I start it straight after it's cut out that I can only describe as a lack of compression, sort of a whining if you know what I mean. I'll get a video..
But if a valve is sticking then it would have a lack of compression wouldn't it?
Here's a video of starting after it's cut out.
RE: Valve/lifter problems. - Toms306 - 06-02-2013
If the valves stuck open when you crank it the air will be pushed straight out the intake again, so there's nothing to compress. I can't see how that would happen though as the piston would obviously hit the valve if that was the case.
As ruan says, get the cover off and look at the lifters....
RE: Valve/lifter problems. - darrenjlobb - 06-02-2013
Yeh uve got a valve just stuck open a tad, u can hear it dropping comp on one cylinder..
Tom it wont hit the valve, would only do that if the valve was stuck entire way open, but theres no timing issue, so even if it did it would just push the valve home, not bend it.
The reason i asked if u had oil pressure gauge is cos as Ruan stated, when u loose oil pressure the head gets dry and things start sticking, this occurs all the time with xuds that have been off road for ages, but for it to happen with a working again suggests something shitted..possibly a lifters pissing oil, but doubt that, possibly collasping lifter causing the rocker to jam, but id say more just a general lack of oil pressure for some given reason, has it been making big power with the blower?
Whip the cover off and see wats kicking off, either way, welcome to diesel tuning
RE: Valve/lifter problems. - Jonny81191 - 06-02-2013
(06-02-2013, 11:09 PM)darrenjlobb Wrote: Yeh uve got a valve just stuck open a tad, u can hear it dropping comp on one cylinder..
Tom it wont hit the valve, would only do that if the valve was stuck entire way open, but theres no timing issue, so even if it did it would just push the valve home, not bend it.
The reason i asked if u had oil pressure gauge is cos as Ruan stated, when u loose oil pressure the head gets dry and things start sticking, this occurs all the time with xuds that have been off road for ages, but for it to happen with a working again suggests something shitted..possibly a lifters pissing oil, but doubt that, possibly collasping lifter causing the rocker to jam, but id say more just a general lack of oil pressure for some given reason, has it been making big power with the blower?
Whip the cover off and see wats kicking off, either way, welcome to diesel tuning
Was making big ish power but not much over what it had already been doing for months TBH
RE: Valve/lifter problems. - Poodle - 06-02-2013
Warlord, Tom1357 and that Jimmy kid, besides others, have had serious lifter and general head issues on their engines. It was attributed to exhaust back-pressure at the time, but never anything conclusive iirc.
I'm thinking we should start to make more gauges a high priority on these builds to keep an eye on the problems - EMP, oil pressure, EGT, etc.
RE: Oh Shit. - cully - 07-02-2013
(06-02-2013, 08:09 PM)Ruan Wrote: Definitely sounds like valve issues...
I'm worried that somehow the head is being starved of oil
jonny you have put another no std turbo on yes
is it posible the hdi runs a restrictor in the oil feed of the std turbo to force oil round the engine so it dont short cut through the turbo?
and jonny has done away with this and starved the engine of oil????
RE: Valve/lifter problems. - Jonny81191 - 07-02-2013
(07-02-2013, 12:49 AM)cully Wrote:(06-02-2013, 08:09 PM)Ruan Wrote: Definitely sounds like valve issues...
I'm worried that somehow the head is being starved of oil
jonny you have put another no std turbo on yes
is it posible the hdi runs a restrictor in the oil feed of the std turbo to force oil round the engine so it dont short cut through the turbo?
and jonny has done away with this and starved the engine of oil????
It's using the standard oil feed, albeit two of them compression fitted together.
RE: Valve/lifter problems. - darrenjlobb - 07-02-2013
U wouldnt loose much pressure thro a turbo feed, heck i run two of the buggers both of stock hdi oil pump and still maintain oil pressure....
Get that rocker cover off and go from there
RE: Valve/lifter problems. - Toms306 - 07-02-2013
(06-02-2013, 11:09 PM)darrenjlobb Wrote: Yeh uve got a valve just stuck open a tad, u can hear it dropping comp on one cylinder..
Tom it wont hit the valve, would only do that if the valve was stuck entire way open, but theres no timing issue, so even if it did it would just push the valve home, not bend it.
Ah ok, that makes sense - I was thinking that if the lifter has stuck the valve down, it won't lift again as the cam moves, but I see your point that it'll just push back into place anyway without doing any damage.
Jonny, just incase you haven't got the idea yet as Im not sure anyones suggested it yet...whip the cam cover off...
RE: Oh Shit. - Jole - 07-02-2013
(06-02-2013, 08:50 PM)Jonny81191 Wrote:(06-02-2013, 07:56 PM)darrenjlobb Wrote: If you start it, rev it out so it does that, then soon as it dies dissconnect something so it wont start and crank it, see if it cranks even or if valves are stuck, need to be quick tho as there likely sticking briefly.
It makes a noise when I start it straight after it's cut out that I can only describe as a lack of compression, sort of a whining if you know what I mean. I'll get a video..
But if a valve is sticking then it would have a lack of compression wouldn't it?
Here's a video of starting after it's cut out.
to me this looks like a drop in fuel pressure can lead only to be cut off and that the pressure regulator
RE: Valve/lifter problems. - Jonny81191 - 07-02-2013
I think I might possibly consider taking the rocker cover off. I'll have to think about it though.
Nah I'll get straight to it this evening and report my findings.
RE: Valve/lifter problems. - darrenjlobb - 07-02-2013
I imagine you likely wont "find" very much, as will probs all look in order.... fire it up at idle and make sure theres plenty of oil appearing at all the bearing journels etc.
*edit* dont rev it with the rocker off tho watever u do if u want to keep engine bay clean as oil will go fookin everywhere lol!
RE: Valve/lifter problems. - Ruan - 07-02-2013
(07-02-2013, 08:28 AM)Toms306 Wrote:(06-02-2013, 11:09 PM)darrenjlobb Wrote: Yeh uve got a valve just stuck open a tad, u can hear it dropping comp on one cylinder..
Tom it wont hit the valve, would only do that if the valve was stuck entire way open, but theres no timing issue, so even if it did it would just push the valve home, not bend it.
Ah ok, that makes sense - I was thinking that if the lifter has stuck the valve down, it won't lift again as the cam moves, but I see your point that it'll just push back into place
Take a look at how the HDi roller rocker works, you can't jam a valve down with a lifter, that's partially the issue with them, the roller rocker essentially disconnects the lifter from the valve top... That's why under high exhaust mani pressure the roller rocker can essentially fall out... That's precisely what was happening on Warlords engine when he shat the roller rockers!
RE: Valve/lifter problems. - Jonny81191 - 07-02-2013
New problem.
Rocker cover off, can't see anything broken or stuck (didn't expect to see anything while it was off anyway, was hoping that once running I'd be able to see the issue)
But the problem is that the crank sensor is mounted to the rocker cover. So it will crank, but not fire. Great.
So much fun!!!
RE: Valve/lifter problems. - darrenjlobb - 07-02-2013
Ah yeh forgot about that problem, ***ing ecus haha, can you see plenty of oil emerging up top across the full head under cranking?
RE: Valve/lifter problems. - Jonny81191 - 07-02-2013
Yeah, what a PITA
There seems to be plenty, If I'm honest I don't know how much to expect, but I'd say there was easily enough.
RE: Valve/lifter problems. - Toms306 - 08-02-2013
(07-02-2013, 03:33 PM)Ruan Wrote:(07-02-2013, 08:28 AM)Toms306 Wrote:(06-02-2013, 11:09 PM)darrenjlobb Wrote: Yeh uve got a valve just stuck open a tad, u can hear it dropping comp on one cylinder..
Tom it wont hit the valve, would only do that if the valve was stuck entire way open, but theres no timing issue, so even if it did it would just push the valve home, not bend it.
Ah ok, that makes sense - I was thinking that if the lifter has stuck the valve down, it won't lift again as the cam moves, but I see your point that it'll just push back into place
Take a look at how the HDi roller rocker works, you can't jam a valve down with a lifter, that's partially the issue with them, the roller rocker essentially disconnects the lifter from the valve top... That's why under high exhaust mani pressure the roller rocker can essentially fall out... That's precisely what was happening on Warlords engine when he shat the roller rockers!
I haven't seen a naked HDi tbh lol, just going on theory from my brain and what I saw from the PD (bad, I know!) and it must be a different setup then.
Also, I didn't realise you could run without the rocker cover (as it was suggested to me on the PD and I basically said 'err, no, there'll be oil everywhere!') which now seems Im wrong......so Jonny, if you do it again, could you take a vid, I'd be interested to see what actually happens lol.
RE: Valve/lifter problems. - darrenjlobb - 08-02-2013
There will be oil everywhere if u do anything other than literally idle...and even at idle if it idles high...trust me
(08-02-2013, 06:01 PM)Toms306 Wrote:(07-02-2013, 03:33 PM)Ruan Wrote:(07-02-2013, 08:28 AM)Toms306 Wrote: Ah ok, that makes sense - I was thinking that if the lifter has stuck the valve down, it won't lift again as the cam moves, but I see your point that it'll just push back into place
Take a look at how the HDi roller rocker works, you can't jam a valve down with a lifter, that's partially the issue with them, the roller rocker essentially disconnects the lifter from the valve top... That's why under high exhaust mani pressure the roller rocker can essentially fall out... That's precisely what was happening on Warlords engine when he shat the roller rockers!
I haven't seen a naked HDi tbh lol, just going on theory from my brain and what I saw from the PD (bad, I know!) and it must be a different setup then.
Also, I didn't realise you could run without the rocker cover (as it was suggested to me on the PD and I basically said 'err, no, there'll be oil everywhere!') which now seems Im wrong......so Jonny, if you do it again, could you take a vid, I'd be interested to see what actually happens lol.
RE: Valve/lifter problems. - Jonny81191 - 08-02-2013
I have a plan.. Going down the scrappers tomorrow, gonna grab an HDi engine (various reasons, Carl wants rods, I want a spare head, and the ancillaries can be useful/sold on)
While I'm there, I'll get another rocker cover and attack it with a saw, that way I can mount the crank sensor and start her up!
Just sometimes, I think I'm quite clever
RE: Valve/lifter problems. - Scott - 08-02-2013
As long as you make sure you remember it's just 'sometimes'. If you think you're clever all the time then we're gonna have trouble.
RE: Valve/lifter problems. - Dum-Dum - 08-02-2013
Or probably easier just to swap all the lifters out the new head.
RE: Valve/lifter problems. - Jonny81191 - 08-02-2013
(08-02-2013, 07:26 PM)Dum-Dum Wrote: Or probably easier just to swap all the lifters out the new head.
This is the plan mate, but I wanna see what's going on if possible first.
RE: Valve/lifter problems. - darrenjlobb - 08-02-2013
As i said, it sounds more of a sticking valve issue than a collapsing lifter issue, but it could be a lifter causing the issue at root possibly...You really need an OP gauge...
RE: Valve/lifter problems. - Jonny81191 - 08-02-2013
Yeah I know, On it as we speak TBH.
Gonna end up looking like this isn't it?
Ah well, needs must
RE: Valve/lifter problems. - Dum-Dum - 09-02-2013
(08-02-2013, 07:34 PM)Jonny81191 Wrote: Yeah I know, On it as we speak TBH.
Gonna end up looking like this isn't it?
Ah well, needs must
^^^ Darrens latest evolution of his interior i see