Slow starter....

[Noodlebear]

So bought a 206 HDi about 4 weeks ago now. Since buying it, it has struggled to start.

Importantly, it has NEVER failed to start, but it does take it's sweet old time.

When it does start, there is normally a puff of grey-ish smoke from the exhaust.

Other than the starting, it does run absolutely fine - have had some issues with the MAF but I have a new one hopefully on the way.



Cany anyone shed some light on the starting issue? And suggest some things I might try to sort them out?

Thanks

[THE_Liam]

Battery?

[lolsteve]

Batteries tend to die a bit when the weather gets cold.

[Noodlebear]

Forgot to mention - when you turn the key, it turns over without any trouble but just doesn't fire for a while.

My brother assures me that the battery is sound.

[C2K]

Rail pressure taking a while to bring up then if you're adamant it's cranking normal speed.

Lazy lp pump I would expect. Got Peugeot planet?

[Poodle]

Yeah i'd see if you can get it on pp2k before spending any money on parts.

Have a look at your fuel filter, could be a bit blocked up. The grey smoke has got me confused, i'm guessing it's substantially more than what you normally get on start up, else you wouldn't have mentioned it..?

[Toms306]

Sure its smoke and not steam?

Mine steams like hell in the morning, but Sams didn't, so I don't really know who's is broken lol. There's no coolant loss though so I've no idea where the extra steam comes from!

If its grey smoke though, that's unburnt fuel which would indicate crap glow plugs to me. And yes I know theoretically hdis don't need them.....but they bloody do!

[Poodle]

No they don't. Mine started at -12 with no glow plugs and no grey smoke, they don't need them, give it up. :p

EDIT: Actually, if your HDi does need the glow plugs to start it's probably an indication that your injector nozzles are well past it, can't think of any other reason they would affect it.

Further edit: That's given me an idea, i wonder if it's lack of compression causing the starting problem? Maybe partially sticking valves..? Don't know, i'm guessing here tbh, don't be worried because i'm probably talking nonsense.

[cully]

here we go again!
just because the lights not on dont mean they arent being used!

[Poodle]

No, forgetting to plug them back in does though! :p

[Toms306]

When you say 'no' plugs, do you mean they werent connected?

Cos they seem to heat up almost instantly in these, so you can turn the key quickly and still start, but they still came on. I'm actually wondering now if the plugs in mine are shit - that would explain the steam (which may actually be smoke) and the shit drive when it's cold, first few seconds its reluctant to do anything........exactly like my NAD with a broken plug.

Plus, I started the golf without plugs once...it did start eventually, but there was epic amounts of smoke for ages. DIs will start without plugs, but it seems to help having them in my experience.

Edit - There, half a second at 0c in cullys table, you wouldn't even notice it lol.

2nd edit - Lol at -30c, 16 seconds! You'd need a bloody good battery haha.

[Poodle]

No, i'd taken them out completely, left gaping holes to atmosphere on each cylinder, ran fine. :p Yes, they were unplugged, had put new ones in and had to rush to finish the job, forgot to wire them in.

Fair enough, maybe i was lucky. All i know is i drove around with it like that for a couple of weeks in bollock-freezing weather and didn't really notice the difference, sure it was a bit rough first thing, but that was normal lol.

Cully, i'm not saying they aren't used on an HDi, just that they don't appear to be necessary, in my experience anyway.

[Toms306]

No, i'd taken them out completely, left gaping holes to atmosphere on each cylinder, ran fine. :p Yes, they were unplugged, had put new ones in and had to rush to finish the job, forgot to wire them in.

Fair enough, maybe i was lucky. All i know is i drove around with it like that for a couple of weeks in bollock-freezing weather and didn't really notice the difference, sure it was a bit rough first thing, but that was normal lol.

Cully, i'm not saying they aren't used on an HDi, just that they don't appear to be necessary, in my experience anyway.

Lol, pedantic, you knew what I meant.

Also, you say they're not necessary but the engine ran rough......well thats why they're there lol, so its up to a decent cylinder temp quicker to run smoothly and not waste fuel and create so many emmisions, not a neccessity, but useful to have, the OP says his car still starts anyway.

I'm tempted to try some new plugs in mine now to see if it makes a difference, will see what they cost first lol. But if its chucking fuel out as smoke on every cold start maybe thats where my mpg is dropping. Hmmm....

---

Hmm, at £40 for the set.....I don't think I'll bother!

[Poodle]

Hahah i know, the idea just made me giggle.

I meant i didn't notice it running any rougher than it did normally, ie it was no different with the plugs than without. This was back in the day though tbf - before i had any mechanical knowledge or sympathy - so maybe it was a bit worse and i just didn't notice.

Let us know if you do, be interested to see the effect. With regards to mpg, personally i think the coolant pre-heater is more likely to make a difference, mine is knackered and it takes forever to get the engine up to temp and i have correspondingly crap mpg. Tell you what, you try the plugs and i'll try the pre-heater, we'll see which has more impact.

Anyway, we're getting off-topic, the poor op's not going to know what's hit him/her.

[Toms306]

Its still on topic, the OP maybe having glow plug issues!

My pre heater is also rubbish, well I assume it's that, it takes a good 10 miles to hit 70c in this weather. But if they needed changing too thats like £80 on glowplugs! Out of interest, are they the same plugs in both? I didn't really have a good look at it when we changed the clutch, wish I had now though lol.

[cully]

just another snipit....

ive just had my antifreez changed and the car takes ages now to warm up im wondering if new antifreeze is actualy better at heat transfer so keeps the car cooler producing crap mpg ???

thoughts

[Toms306]

Was told at college that water is better for cooling than antifreeze, as I understood it its only there to stop freezing and rust doesnt help cool in any way, so theoretically it should heat up quicker if you've now got a stronger concentration of anti-freeze to water.

I still don't really understand why HDis run so cold anyway, every other car I've had has warmed up within ~5 miles and sat around 90. HDi barely reaches 75, but takes atleast 10 miles to get to 70! Does anyone know when the cold map cuts off, like what temp?

[cully]

69 deg tom for the map change
stat opens at 84 temp then drops to 79 running on my car

i can see/feel/hear all these things happening on mine with the help of the scangauge

feel like Neo reading the code

[Poodle]

The change in anti-freeze shouldn't affect your engine warming cycle, thermostat still opens at the same temp, so until that point the cooling effect will be minimal. Maybe you had a bit of an airlock before...?

Don't know if it's the same plugs in both, someone have a look on servicebox, i cba right now.

[Toms306]

It runs the cold map till 69c?

Well that'll explain my crap mpg then, most of my driving atm is on the cold map!! I need to rag it in the mornings then, warm it up quicker!

[Mr Whippy]

You could really do with just logging the RP sensor voltage, ooor maybe via PP, at crank.

See if on these loooong starting cycles the RP is getting up or not.


As C2K mentioned, maybe a lazy lift pump? Or clogged and that too takes time to get some pressure up?!

Lift pump has a gauss filter which is easy to check. I'd probably do a fuel filter change just to be sure too.

Then get some diagnostic kit on to watch the sensor readings basically. Then you can go from there. Maybe the garage has a snap-on reader that can watch rail pressure while the car is running/starting. It should get up to 300bar and then start. If it's slowly creeping up to 50, then 100, then 200, then you know something isn't right there.

The fact it is sometimes 2s which is probably normal in winter, and sometimes 10s which isn't, then it's certainly something that can operate fine one minute but not the next.

Maybe a sticky relief valve due to being dirty? Maybe just the lift pump being lazy as was said?


Relief valve is fairly easy to clean.

Lift pump is easy to check.

Hardest one really is checking rail sensor value because it requires some electronic jiggery pokery hehe.

Dave

[Noodlebear]

Seen the mechanic yesterday, turns out the problem was a slightly dodgy ring washer within the top of one of the injector. The resultant effect was the fuel dropping away from the injector overnight causing the rough start. A replacement part was ordered from euro parts while I waited however he bought a ring washer for the bottom of the injector.

Thanks for your helps on this one.

[Poodle]

Leak-off pipe o-ring?

Glad you got it sorted.