XUD Smoke+Shaking it's tits off+hunting revs etc

[306Puggy]

Okay, I need some severe help here. I am not new to diesels by any means, having come from the VW turbo diesel scene. However, having recently acquired a dTurbo, I do need help (maybe mental help as well). When I got the dTurbo, it was fine, I rebuilt the pump and then things started happening.

The original pump was the one that start my problems, but they are continuing even though I have replaced the original pump with a spare (the only mods I have done to the spare are the ground LDA pin and governor from the original).

The car doesn't idle properly. It hunts up and down but it's very prounced hunting; i.e. as if I was reving the engine with the accelarator pedal. While it's doing this I can get it in gear without it stalling with some careful clutch control but then it will "bunny hop" down the road until I put my foot down to get it above about 2000 revs. Before this it would just pull itself along smoothly without any throttle. Also at idle occasionally the revs go too low and it just cuts out like when waiting at traffic lights.

Also, if I am driving along and come off the throttle in a high gear, the car will shake violently but not stall. This will happen almost without any warning.

Now onto the third problem, the missfire. There is an audible missfire accompanied by a puff of smoke. It smells strongly of veg which would indictate it is unburnt fuel. The pump is in the middle of the advance bracket so it is not too far retarded.

Things I have done so far to diagnose the problem:

Checked timing
Stripped, cleaned and reassembled injectors
Changed fuel pump
Fiddled with various settings on pump, none of them seem to make a difference at all
Changed manifold gasket
Checked for air in the lines with clear fuel lines as well as running from a bottle of veg
Inspected fuel filter (I doubt this could cause such complex problems anyway)
Replaced fireseals and copper washers
Unscrewed injector lines one at a time-no change
Checked for symtoms of head gasket failure-none

I'm out of ideas. This has been going on for months and it doesn't seem to get any worse, it just stays the same which is surprisingly frustrating because it's like "If there is something so drastically wrong at least break properly" sort of thing. The way it runs you would have thought it was going to blow up on the spot, but it just keeps running like a bag of shit without getting better or worse.

[Bananalad]

Your valves have probably tightened, rocker cover off get the feeler gauges out and check clearences.. Im in the middle of this problem at the moment

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Just to add my compression was down on 3 cylinders with my valves being too tight, got them shimmed and the car ran a bit better but it still was hunting and white smoke etc, compression still the same though..

[Ruan]

Even though you say you've checked the timing... I'm still at this time going to say it's timing...

When you lock off everything how do you do it? It's worryingly easy to get these engines a tooth out when putting the belt back on if you're not harsh with pulling the belt TIGHT over the pump and cam pulleys.. The amount of times people have said they've checked the timing and infact it's still a tooth off...

I'm going to guess at it hasn't got much power along with this...

[Bananalad]

Didnt actually read he has no power, mine still pulls like a train

[306Puggy]

Your valves have probably tightened, rocker cover off get the feeler gauges out and check clearences.. Im in the middle of this problem at the moment

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Just to add my compression was down on 3 cylinders with my valves being too tight, got them shimmed and the car ran a bit better but it still was hunting and white smoke etc, compression still the same though..

I've measured the valve clearances, they are out by quite a margin:

Inlet 1 .004
Exhaust 1 .011
Exhaust2 .011
Inlet 2 .006
Inlet3 .006
Exhaust 3 .011
Inlet 4 .006

I am reluctant to dive in a change the shims because 1. It's on a new cambelt (and I've already changed the belt twice during the course of this problem) and 2. If it doesn't solve the problem I WILL go mad Edit: I've just seen, I've missed the 4th exhaust valve, but this concerns the inlet valves so I don't think it matters.

How did you find changing the shims anyway? Was it quite fiddly?

Even though you say you've checked the timing... I'm still at this time going to say it's timing...

When you lock off everything how do you do it? It's worryingly easy to get these engines a tooth out when putting the belt back on if you're not harsh with pulling the belt TIGHT over the pump and cam pulleys.. The amount of times people have said they've checked the timing and infact it's still a tooth off...

I'm going to guess at it hasn't got much power along with this...

Hello Ruan, thank you for your expertise. I will try to explain in as much detail as possible how I check the timing. I have done this about a dozen times since the start of this problem. I use a 6mm allen key which does allow for some slight play if I move the crank directly, but it doesn't move when I am applying the belt. To lock the pump pulley and crank pulley I use the intercooler bolts, the two with the thread on top for the pump pulley and the allen one for the camshaft pulley.

When I apply the cambelt I follow the Haynes method of pulling it up from the crankshaft over the fuel pump and camshaft with the slack on the tensioner side. I then release the tensioner to let it do it's thing. After rotating the engine a few times I check the timing with the intercooler bolts for the sprockets and the 6mm allen key for the flywheel hole. Each time I've checked the timing the bolts have gone in perfectly straight without cross threading.

I've even checked the woodruff key slot on both Bosches to make sure there is no damage that would allow play in the woodruff key, but of course they are fine. I'm not going to discount that the timing is wrong, but I might not be able to tell or something because the bolts drop right in the holes with no fuss.

I think you are on to something though Ruan because it seems to have no torque low down...also, there's another thing, I don't see much black smoke anymore either. If it is the timing I'm at a loss as to how to proceed because to my eyes it looks fine.

[Mattcheese31]

another thing worth mentioning is that on cold mornings running on veg it will hunt like a fcuker and not be happy under 2k until engine has warmed up . . . . . .i've been running veg a couple of years now . .

[306Puggy]

Question if I may Mattcheese31:

When you are running veg, is the vegetable odour very strong? Since these shennanigans started, I could have sworn the veg aroma is twice as strong as it was before. Once I've parked I can smell the veg aroma still lingering in the air. I am sure it never used to be as strong. I think we are on to something here.

[Tyronnster]

another thing worth mentioning is that on cold mornings running on veg it will hunt like a fcuker and not be happy under 2k until engine has warmed up . . . . . .i've been running veg a couple of years now . .

Amen

[CJ_Derv]

Mine did something similar in the balze running veg was a fucker to get goin in morning especially this time of year when its getting cold, when did you last change the fuel filter i no its nothing major like previous answers but this fixed my problem as the pump was struggling to drag fuel through, also check the pickup in tank.

May be a long shot tbh but if all timing holes line up cant think of anything else, im unsure what the valve clearances would need to be but dont think would make much of a difference on these things tbf but i may be wrong

try running on derv for a couple of days see if it makes a difference

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also drain any water out of filter Ginge told me to do this other week and has 90% solved white smoke on starup

[Dave]

Your LDA is getting stuck down, so when it does pop up you loose all fuelling/stalls all over the shop, or your anti-stall spring is either missing/not set correctly.

[Stephen]

Nice to read a thread from a new member who is actually polite!
In reference to another thread....

Hope you get it sorted soon mate!

[306Puggy]

Your valves have probably tightened, rocker cover off get the feeler gauges out and check clearences.. Im in the middle of this problem at the moment

---

Just to add my compression was down on 3 cylinders with my valves being too tight, got them shimmed and the car ran a bit better but it still was hunting and white smoke etc, compression still the same though..

So have you solved your issue yet? If the valve clearances only made a slight difference then there must be a main cause with the valve clearances just being a secondary.

Mine did something similar in the balze running veg was a fucker to get goin in morning especially this time of year when its getting cold, when did you last change the fuel filter i no its nothing major like previous answers but this fixed my problem as the pump was struggling to drag fuel through, also check the pickup in tank.

May be a long shot tbh but if all timing holes line up cant think of anything else, im unsure what the valve clearances would need to be but dont think would make much of a difference on these things tbf but i may be wrong

try running on derv for a couple of days see if it makes a difference

---

also drain any water out of filter Ginge told me to do this other week and has 90% solved white smoke on starup

Hmm, yeah there's a few things to try there. I haven't changed the fuel filter for a couple of years but I haven't done a lot of mileage either and plenty of fuel still seems to be getting through and I have run the pump on fuel straight from the bottle which resulted in it still idling erratically. Question: When you drain the water how do you do it? If I open the screw at the bottom of the fuel filter housing, it just seems to piss fuel out, theres no water in there.

And would a blocked fuel filter cause smoke? I'm tryna figure out if the missfire and smoke are part of the same problem or a different one. Also I tried the running on derv thing, sometimes it seems like the smoke is actually worse on derv than on vegy.

Your LDA is getting stuck down, so when it does pop up you loose all fuelling/stalls all over the shop, or your anti-stall spring is either missing/not set correctly.

How could I stop that from happening? Would it be okay to put grease on the pin? Regarding the anti stall spring, I am sure that is on and functioning correctly, except there is no way to tell once the lid is back on. A stuck LDA wouldn't cause smoke though or would it? That does add up though, because it seems to have no power lower down, but that could be because it has been grinded.

[KrisB]

A couple of years with no new fuel filter + running veg = your problems. Matt was bang on it.

[Dan!]

Flynn.

[CJ_Derv]

Filters can look ok but be shagged i think, i had same problem wen i ran veg in was forever changing filters lol

[306Puggy]

Right, one thing I forgot to mention. Just chucked some regular derv in for a change today and the results are dire. Plumes of smoke down the road, won't idle for shit, stalls even easier, the same symptoms as on veg but much worse.

If it is the timing I will have to go to KrisB's to get it sorted because I have done the belt successfully twice, once on the old Lucas unit and once when I did the Bosch conversion, both times fine.

I've also changed the belt twice since the beginning of this problem, so either I've got the timing wrong both times or something else is running amok. I won't know until I can afford a trip up to KrisB.

The results seem to contradict the fuel filter being blocked because derv would flow better through a blocked filter than vegy.

And it is surprisingly driveable at higher revs, I was doing 90 on the motorway today, no problems.

However, I've done the belt twice since this problem started and neither time did the symptoms go away.

[Mattcheese31]

if it's drivable at high revs wouldn't that point to timing being far too advanced? . . . . .i've seen a few people get the belts wrong on these mate . .

[Bananalad]

I fixed mine the other day.








New engine

[306Puggy]

if it's drivable at high revs wouldn't that point to timing being far too advanced? . . . . .i've seen a few people get the belts wrong on these mate . .

Hmm, the pump is in the middle of the timing adustment slot. There is no low down torque (hardly) but it seems normal at higher revs. The only method I've got of timing the engine is to drop the bolts through the holes in the sprockets, theres nothing else for reference. And everytime that is what I've done, TBH.

I fixed mine the other day.








New engine

If I could afford 150+ pounds then I would. But there has got to be an answer for this, it's not just some mystery incureable engine disease.

[Bananalad]

Mine was the exact same, there was still power high up in revs with no smoke. New engine in and i used my old pump which is perfect on the new engine so id rule that out

[Mattcheese31]

i'm not gonna lie i haven't done a belt on these but i'm told you've got to feed it on in the right order or timing will be out . .

sounds like timing though mate, mine slipped a tooth or 3 a good while back and was similar . .

[parrotveasey81]

try moving the fuel pump on its mounts forward and backwards to see if that helps

does it start easy when cold??
also it may be wort getting a compression test done

[306Puggy]

Right:

Thanks to a couple hours at KrisB's, he found the problem was due to two things:

1. The starting problem was due to the pump being in the middle of the bracket instead of 2/3rds of the way advanced.

2. The stuttering, missfire and erratic idle was due to a blocked fuel filter. KrisB's theory is that the blocked fuel filter restricted the flow of diesel and therefore interfered with the injection timing.

Once the the pump had been advanced the engine fired up first turn. Once the fuel filter had been replaced the missfire had gone, the idle had gone back to normal and therefore allowed the idle speed to be reduced and the car no longer shook violently at low revs in lower gears.

If only I had gone to KrisB's earlier, I struggled with this problem for several months (since April to August when I gave up).

I have spent the following trying to solve this problem:

*50 pounds for a replacement Bosch to replace the original Bosch I had converted to
*20 pounds to buy a replacement cambelt to redo the cambelt incase the timing was wrong
*? pounds for god knows how much vegy to test it on + diesel to clean injectors with
*16 pounds for a new manifolds gasket
*5 pounds for clear fuel lines to check for any air getting in
*Various other stuff that I've forgotten about

By the time I got to KrisB's I told him that I was beyond the end of my tether with it, he took one look at it and instantly knew what was wrong

[CJ_Derv]

For the sake of a couple of quid and 5min job i always change filter first, when i got the black derv it was on a lucas but me and JP could tell it had been ran on something other than veg, i put a new filter in and even though i have only ran on derv since buying it the new filter clogged up again after a month or so from the shit the veg or watever fuel he used left in tank

Glad you got there in the end but its fair to say you had the information before taking it to kris b, but main thing is its sorted

[306Puggy]

Hmmm, yeah. I guess I got it into my head that it couldn't have been a couple of simple things, it helps to have someone look at it with a fresh perspective. I thought it was something more terminal like I had accidently dropped a bolt down the inlet manifold and it had bent a valve without me hearing it or something along those lines. Edit: Not to mention I tried running it off a bottle of veg. Such was my level of frustration. Atleast I didn't resort to swapping a perfectly good engine like Bananalad :p

[davalav]

I'm glad this has been fixed mate! Had a similar issue with air in my fuel system, found out it was the fuel filter causing the problem! Had issues with stalling and not idling properly... yet would work when you got past certain amount of revs...

Also its handy to know the fix to this! I am sure this may help a lot of people who experience these similar problems.

[306Puggy]

Also dare I say I did the most obscure things to try to solve the problem! I had a stuck copper washer so I thought that might be causing it. I dug it out whilst doing quite a bit of damage to the friggin injector seat and replaced it with a new one. I also scrapped all of the carbon off the injector sleeves as well, which subsequently probably did more harm than good due to the scrapings of carbon falling into the pre chambers! Damn I did some crazy things to try and sort out this problem!

[Bananalad]

Hmmm, yeah. I guess I got it into my head that it couldn't have been a couple of simple things, it helps to have someone look at it with a fresh perspective. I thought it was something more terminal like I had accidently dropped a bolt down the inlet manifold and it had bent a valve without me hearing it or something along those lines. Edit: Not to mention I tried running it off a bottle of veg. Such was my level of frustration. Atleast I didn't resort to swapping a perfectly good engine like Bananalad :p

Only seeing this now glad you got sorted! My engine was VERY unhealthy though When i had it out i seen one of my timing belt tensioners was just about to snap, also did most of the seals on the new engine so no more oil leaks

[Adam.M.Penny]

ive had this problem for the past 3 weeks, ive gone through 3 belts, timed it up a million times because i kept doubting myself, even though the holes lined up each time, a new pump (lucas to bosch) ive had the injectors tested and cleaned, and after all that i never thought to change the filter.... i feel a bit of a T**T if im honest.... im gonna put a new one on tomorro and see what happens... it cant be anything else...

[306Puggy]

Yeah bud, let us know how you get on!