RE: "My HDi won't start", review and continuation

[Poodle]

This is a thread i started on .net back when i first had the problem, thought it might be useful on here for reference. Will update with progress as and when it happens, should be a bit quicker now i've got a half-decent daily and some spare cash. To begin with, here's the original post, next post will be a summary of other posts in thread with useful info.

Right, my b*****d car won't start, i don't think i've missed anything, but want to double-check before shelling out for a refurbed HP pump. Firstly, some history:
It used to have major issues with cutting out, this was 95% solved with refurbed injectors all round. Recently the car has been having trouble starting, the other day it refused to start at all - it would crank a couple of times, try to catch, then give up and go back to cranking. I changed the HP pump for the one i've rebuilt myself, now it doesn't try and catch at all, just cranks away. Obviously this means my home rebuild attempt has failed miserably (more on this in the relevant thread when i get a mo), more importantly it means i'm still stuck without a car.


What i've checked so far...

1) LP pump primes without needing encouragement from a hammer, pressure seems good, flow steady, no gold filings in filter housing.

2) Filter housing is well sealed, contains a genuine filter.

3) Injectors are all recently refurbished items, injector pipes are done up properly and not leaking.

4) FPR valve has been swapped with a known good item and made no difference.

5) As above for third piston shut-off and FRPS, will be checking voltage output from sensor later today to try and determine rail-pressure at cranking.

6) Cam sensor connection is damaged, but has been like this as long as i've had the car and never been a problem before - have checked it for signs of a poor connection and there are none.

8) Brown relay shows no signs of poor connection, but was replaced anyway for a new, genuine item.

7) ECU connections are fine, not damp/damaged.

8) All earths are fine - good, clean connections.

9) Car has fuel in. <<< For you mooey.


Is there anything else i've missed or could be checking in case? What do these symptoms suggest to you? Cheers.

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Any responses including useful information:

Have you stuck a multimeter onto the Pressure Sensor? Do that and when cranking you should see it climb above 1.3v which indicates 300bar. Multimeter shoved into the yellow connector pins 2+3 I think. The tester ends of the meter just slide into the rear of the plug and hold themselves there. If you're seeing pressure then you'll need to find out why the injectors aren't firing. That could be cam or crank sensors - followed by immobiliser. You could then try taking a reading at the injectors to see if you're getting the 80v for them to lift - I've never done this, but this may help:

http://minke.whalesanctuary.co.uk/306/hd...epump.html


My mates did this... when the crank sensor broke... It was so close to starting but just wouldn't.

Code reader said Camshaft position sensor.


Try squeezing the retun line from the pump, will it then try to start?


ECU Plug wiring:

   

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Latest, so far unrecorded progress:

Lift pump was tested, consistently delivers an adequate amount of fuel at good pressure.

Brown relay behind ECU has been replaced.

My ECU was sent off to the ECU doctor to be checked, they informed me the immob chip burnt out and had to be replaced.

I have bought and fitted a new HP pump.

I have bought and fitted a new battery.

None of the above appear to have made a difference at all.


I have done as much diagnostics as i can with the PP2000, it only came up with three codes:

• EGR circuit (something i've caused and won't affect starting)
  
• MAF short/open circuit (see above, loads of people run with a disconnected maf)
  
• TL4226 (seen this on every HDi i've ever seen on PP2000 lol, it's the secondary pre-heating circuit - helps the car warm up on cold days and doesn't affect starting)
  

Injector voltage looks fine, however rail pressure doesn't appear to be rising on cranking, so now i'm thinking FRPS, FPR, HP pump or ECU. Shouldn't be any of these as they're all new/have been checked, but i can't think of anything else that could be causing it.


Anyone else got any other theories? Testing is ongoing so am welcoming suggestions.

[Poodle]

Nobody got any ideas on this at all? If this had happened to you, where would you be looking? Loom maybe..?

[gareth7]

This sounds like a right nightmare mate and in all honesty I haven't got a clue but I think that swapping the engine loom might not be a bad idea......you seem to have changed/replaced just about everything else so it's got to be worth a shot!

[Poodle]

Hahaha the thought did cross my mind. Going to try the crank and cam sensors first to make sure they're all right, then think i'll go over the loom.

Thing that makes me think it's not the FPR is that i was using pp2k on someone else's car recently and it stated the FPR was jammed, but it doesn't say this on mine...

[cully]

in PP2000 is it saying the key is unlocking the ecu ?

[ben87]

i had a very similar problem....

sensor behind the ECU


my last pin was burnt out,quick clean with sandpaper and been good ever since!


Thanks majorly to warlord i think who helped my out in the chatbox

you tried that?

[Poodle]

How do i go about checking that Cully?

That's not a sensor, that's the "brown relay", it's the relay for all your fuelling controls, lp pump, FPR, TPS, plus some other random stuff. It's already been replaced with a new one, thanks though.

[4WayDiablo]

May sound silly and may be completely wrong but could it be glow plugs?
When mine were dead on the DT it would be ATLEAST 5 mins of cranking and just starting before battery died
Or even glow plug relay?

[gareth7]

HDi's rarely use the glow plugs.......

[cully]

HDi's rarely use the glow plugs.......

that statement is wrong!
it should read
"Hdi's glowplug light rarely iluminates"
as the glow plugs work without showing the light for post starting heating, it only iluminates fror pre starting heating

10 - 1 - PRE-HEATING
As soon as ignition is switched on : The engine management control unit supplies the glow plugs and controls the lighting of the warning light on the instrument panel, depending on the coolant temperature; The pre-heating time varies depending on the coolant temperature .

NOTE : the warning light on the instrument panel only comes on during the pre-heating phase; it comes on for the duration of the pre-heating .
coolant temperature pre-heating time
(second(s))
-30°C 20
-10°C 5
0°C 0.5
+18°C 0

If the starter is not operated, when the warning light goes out, the glow plugs remain supplied for a maximum of 10 seconds .

During the starting phase, the glow plugs are supplied under the following conditions :
• the coolant temperature is below 20 degrees C
• the engine runs at more than 70 rpm for 0.2 second(s)

10 - 2 - POST HEATING
Post-heating consists of prolonging the operation of the glow plugs for a maximum of 60 seconds from the end of the starting phase .
Parameters which could interrupt post-heating :
• coolant temperature greater than 20 degrees C
• flow injected greater than 35 mm3
• engine speed above 2000 rpm

[gareth7]

Fair enough Cully......I didn't realise that mate

[Poodle]

The HDi rarely needs the glow plugs, that's for sure. Never had a problem starting without glowies before, put it like that.

[4WayDiablo]

Fair enough. Just thought it may have been worth a mention lol

[Poodle]

It's all worth a mention, for all i know i could be missing something forehead-smackingly obvious haha. Cheers!

[Rebellious]

how you getting on chap? facing similar issues with mine and im down to FPR FPS or the engine harness itself causing my issue. however im getting a p0230 fault code indicating brown relay tried a spare no joy. brand new lift pump, getting 3bar at filter, constantly no issues there. upon checking FPS im getting 4.99v 9v and 0v , before anyone says thats not right, i know. could this be an indication of a break or short somewhere???

in the same boat... any advice is welcome,

yes its got fuel in it. yes they key is working with the ecu. reason i say this is because occationally it will start then cut out after a few moments.

[Poodle]

I'd forgotten about this thread! Got some useful stuff here for my guide, cheers for the reminder lol.

Getting on just fine actually, she runs! I would say your problem is probably down to the FPS, the 4.99v is the sensor signal, which operates in a range of ~1.3 - 4.99 (~1.3 being the equivalent of ~280bar - fuel pressure at cranking speed). Showing as 4.99 permanently would say to me it's knackered.

I didn't fix mine until I got it on PP2000, the amount of information you get from it is brilliant, but still didn't reveal the problem... As it goes I think the solution was the HP pump. Mainly because i can't think of anything else i changed between then and the car starting (I changed the HP pump back in december - quite hard to remember that far back lol). There was the battery, but i'd swapped the battery over more than once previously and it showed every indication of being fine before i left it sat in the car for 4 months.

What happened was a bit odd, i got it on pp2k and it showed every indication of being fine except for showing zero rail pressure. This was odd because there should be pressure in the rail from the lift pump, even if i wasn't cranking the engine. Swapped the lift pump, fps and fpr for known-good items and got the same result. Checked all connections, unions, fittings, had a look at the fuel pipes for blockages, tested the loom; all fine... Tried to start it one last time before giving up and scrapping it, what do you know she suddenly magically showed rail pressure at normal levels and fired straight up. This was a couple of weeks ago now, she has started fist time, every time ever since.

I haven't had a chance to test for cutting out problems yet as she's not all in one piece, but will report back soon on that

[gareth7]

Good to hear you've got her started up again Alex

[Mr Whippy]

It makes you wonder if it's just interfering with the loom that often fixes these phantom problems more than any new parts you fit.

The looms have 11-14 years of life in them now, dirt, corrosion, cold/hot cycling. It does make you wonder how many connections or even wires are that great any more.

I've seen enough random loom issues to not rule it out any way. I guess the problem is finding a new loom is harder as it's fairly unique to the 306 I guess.


5v at the RPS is dodgy though.

Is it 5v when cranking or just 5v as soon as the ignition is switched on?


Does fault code appear after clearing only when you crank the engine, or does it appear before cranking after being cleared?


You'll isolate the problem eventually. We need to build a community flow chart for this job hehe...

Dave

[Poodle]

Thanks Gareth, was so close to being a scrapyard job lol.

Maybe so, Dave, although i would be surprised in my case as i tested the loom pretty thoroughly. Just realised it could have been the ECU, as i got that fixed (allegedly) after fitting the new HP pump.

Flow chart sounds like a good idea, i've already started a comprehensive guide: http://306oc.co.uk/forum/thread-1497.html, would appreciate your input if you have the spare time as i'm certainly no pro.

[philhdi2]

Hi, new but have had 3 306's now have a family so upgraded in size to 406 2.0 HDi EXEC EST (lovely)

although

I have the EXACT same issue as this, can anyone shine a little more light on voltages for me please so I can narrow down possibles of ECU or loom?

replaces pre/post heat relay today as had 3 faults with that and it was sticking open and draining battery.

now just getting code of doom..... TL4226 and not starting in exactly the same manor as stated above

Thank-you in advance guys/girls?

[Poodle]

I don't know what more information you would want about voltages..? It's all there ^^^ and there's some more info in the links in my sig if they're any help.

Where are you based?

[philhdi2]

I don't know what more information you would want about voltages..? It's all there ^^^ and there's some more info in the links in my sig if they're any help.

Where are you based?

Middlesbrough cheers mate

[Poodle]

Ah i'm a bit far away for you then lol.

Shout if you get stuck or have any other questions/need stuff clarifying.

[philhdi2]

what is RPS? Rail Pressure Switch? I am getting 286bar on ignition and 320/385bar on cranking..... is this within tolerance?

also getting 4.9V on sensor supply reading on ignition and cranking is this also ok?

I am lacking knowledge articles and autodata at the moment so proving difficult to diagnose

quick update: I have pulled the loom apart to search for "short to earth" no breaks, chaffing, or burns and arc marks anywhere, in-fact it looks in excellent condition. which has ironically depressed me a little as I was hoping it was going to be simple wiring fault

[Poodle]

F/RPS = Fuel/Rail Pressure Sensor

Those figures aren't right, should get about 3bar with ignition and ~280bar while cranking, as above. If you know someone with an HDi you can swap rail sensors with, that would be ideal, as it sounds as if yours is faulty.

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Also, seems strange you've replaced the pre-heater and are still getting the TL4226 fault...

[philhdi2]

Yes I thought the same, it could be a wiring issue that has caused the old unit to fault?

also, been sent this.....
https://docs.google.com/file/d/1yr2be8GD...sp=sharing

it's on my google drive, for everyone to view and will never be removed so if anyone would like to distribute to relevant knowledge-base articles across forums, feel free.

BIT OF AN OOPS:

although this is accurate info my engine is an RHZ not RHY however,
This one is the RHZ 110BHP (mine)
https://docs.google.com/file/d/1QnZbTCeU...sp=sharing

[Poodle]

Could be, or age, overtightening, blocked inlet, any number of possible causes.

Best bet is to double check all your connections and earths before replacing anything, just to be sure.

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Appreciate you sharing the info there, would rep you if I could.

[philhdi2]

you're welcome,
I'll have autodata myself soon too so I will be posting all of the engine types for 306/406's when I get it.

no update on car yet, ive cranked my battery to death, it's on charge

[Ktm525mx]

Hi, it look like you know a lot in this forum. I ran without the slightest problem, stayed for 10 minutes and then I have not been able to start the car (406 hdi -02 RHZ). I have diesel to the injectors and the timing belt is ok. The RPM meter does not move at all when I run the starter motor, any tips on what it is .
Excuse the English I'm from Sweden

[Poodle]

Have a look at the link in my signature mate, should give you somewhere to start. Have replied in your other thread too.