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1999 306 sedan rear torsion bar adjustment
#1
Hi, I found a few guides related to rear axle rebuilds/ lowering but jpgs are dead links and opera wont play the videos.
I can see there are a lot of complications with the rear axle, so would someone help out with the diagnostic of my right rear wheel sagging? It appears to be approx 25mm further in to the wheel well than the left side, that is all I have observed, looks straight etc.
Car (XUD) has done 56000K now, could it be as simple as adjusting the torsion bar, but seen mention you must withdraw from splines on both sides first, not to mention collapsed beam etc so am confused at this stage.
I'm travelling North Queensland at the moment, may be a day or two before I get back to the forum.
TIA  Ron
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#2
If it's excessive camber you've got then the bearings, axle shaft n tube will all be worn out.  That was my experience anyway. https://www.306oc.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?tid=35827

This is a great rear beam rebuild guide with images embedded in it.  It's for the 205 but the beam is nearly identical to the 306. Just ignore the flexible  mount bit - The mounts on the 306 beam bolt on. https://www.205gtidrivers.com/articles/a...guide-r66/
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#3
BTW, I imagine in Australia you'd have significantly fewer problems with torsion bars seizing than we do with salted roads in the winter. I.e., it hopefully won't be too difficult to take the torsion bar out to investigate what's going on.

How long have you had the car BTW? Is it possible a previous owner has set the torsion bar up wrong and you've only just noticed?  I've not heard of them spontaneously weakening on one side.
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#4
(22-06-2018, 06:49 AM)Mighty306 Wrote: If it's excessive camber you've got then the bearings, axle shaft n tube will all be worn out.  That was my experience anyway. https://www.306oc.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?tid=35827

This is a great rear beam rebuild guide with images embedded in it.  It's for the 205 but the beam is nearly identical to the 306. Just ignore the flexible  mount bit - The mounts on the 306 beam bolt on. https://www.205gtidrivers.com/articles/a...guide-r66/

Hi and thanks for the links, got them downloaded for offline viewing later.
I haven't noticed any obvious camber issue, but might invest in a level and find some level ground, I am hoping to find a measuring point on both sides for checking the sag, if it is permanent, one other time I parked and it looked OK.
Does the collapsing happen fairly quickly after a bearing siezing because of rust then? Yes the vechile has been mostly on dry clean roads. Myself, I have been avoiding both rain and gravel roads. It sounds like the axle tube would benefit from grease nipples.
Ron
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#5
in my experience needle bearings dont thrive from grease, the wear happens from poorly installed internals like bearings especially the depth of the inner bearings and not forgetting water ingress.
90' 205 gti6 supercharged
05' Evo 9 IX GT

Team eaton.


Axle rebuilds please contact me for your needs.

https://www.facebook.com/axlesbystef/
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#6
Once you've stripped a beam down you'd see why grease nipples would be of no help.  From the factory these lasted a long time anyway. I sold one at 13 years old on the original beam.  Rebuilt well it could outlast the rest of the car.
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#7
(25-06-2018, 09:23 PM)Mighty306 Wrote: Once you've stripped a beam down you'd see why grease nipples would be of no help.  From the factory these lasted a long time anyway. I sold one at 13 years old on the original beam.  Rebuilt well it could outlast the rest of the car.

I've attached some pictures I took on a concrete bridge, not too far from level.
Car is not unloaded of junk at this point though, you can just see the right side is lower in height.
Using a plumb-bob made with light nylon and a small lead sinker, I picked up worse positive camber on the left side.
I could convert it to degrees by using the gap over the tyre contact point distance, it has to be done forward of the bulge at the bottom of course.
The difference top to bottom on the right side was about 6mm positive, the left side about 10mm positive.
I have to look for my saved alignment data, but if there is no adjustment for camber, I guess there is a problem.
Any guess as to the extent of parts I will require to complete the job. If the rollers do not run on the actual shaft, can it be rebuilt and machined to speciied size?  Maybe these parts are available on line, but postage will be a factor.


Attached Files Image(s)
           
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#8
In some of the pictures it does look like you have more camber than normal.  Difficult to tell for sure though.  There is no adjustment for camber & if it's noticeable then it's likely collapsed bearings.

The bearings do make direct contact with the axle shaft.  They also run on the outer bearing shell, which is an interference fit in the axle tube.  The axle shafts are likely to have suffered at least some wear unless you know the history of the beam and are sure it's had a good rebuild.  If wear has gone a long way the bearings give up completely, the shaft grinds through the bearing shell and in to the tube itself.  The tube is scrap then too.  The only way to tell how far your beam has gone is to strip it down.

If you have a look at the thread I linked to above it should help, including parts diagrams showing how the beam is constructed.
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#9
I will be looking for a kit with 2 shafts and bearings I think.
Hard facing and machining is not likely to be cheap here in Aus, and europarts claim they are too old now.
If these these things dont last, It may be better to invest in a heavier xsi rear end?
This car (60K) has been in ideal conditions, one elderly owner before me, light loads and no towbar so far
So far I have found a kit for a 206 on ebay (Neat auto uk)
Are 206 parts the same or just similar to look at?
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#10
206 ones are different & won't fit. The 205 ones are the same though.

Here are some examples ..

https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/PEUGEOT-205-306...Sw2XFUgLVp

https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/RECO-REAR-BEAM-...Sw-ndTnu06

https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Peugeot-205-Cit...2205230812
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#11
(28-06-2018, 06:57 AM)Mighty306 Wrote: 206 ones are different & won't fit. The 205 ones are the same though.

Here are some examples ..

https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/PEUGEOT-205-306...Sw2XFUgLVp

https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/RECO-REAR-BEAM-...Sw-ndTnu06

https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Peugeot-205-Cit...2205230812

Wow, my searching of ebay never found any of those, fantastic.
One thought was to turn the shaft 180 degrees to get the best surface for new bearings, but better to leave those tricks for when kits like these aren't available.
A wrecker offered me a rear end from a rallye 306 are these the same as an xsi? Probably long term information, I think fitting the kits and maybe raising the car one notch on the torsion bars may suffice.
I would like to be carry more weight eventually, I have rhino racks to fit as well.
I noticed the estate break model has discs, that would be nice to have. 
The rear wheel drums/cylinders on my 405 have been an ongoing problem.
Aftermarket cylinders did not have the unloader built in, so I'll have to swap that mechanism from the old
cylinders one day.
Jabbing the brakes noticeably locks the back wheels at the moment, and they are leaking a bit already.
I have an older 1988 405 SRDT sedan that came with discs on the back.
Many years of overloading high mileage 504 and 405 cars and never had the 306 type problem though.
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#12
I'm now at my friends place where I have access to tools etc.
I've refined my process of checking the camber using a level to find a good spot for the car, and to check the camber on the rear wheels. Still I'm finding a reasonable amount of positive camber on the right, and at least double on the left. It is noticeable when looking from a distance also.
However after removing the wheels, applying jack pressure at various places on the trailing arm shows no movement in the bearings. 
I also was able to get a good grip on the trailing arm with big stilson pipewrench and pipe extension. Trying to twist the arm down in the positive camber direction also produced no movement in the arm. I also had the magnetic level on the brake drum while I was doing this.
The difference in camber between the ARP plate and the brake drum appeared to be the same on both sides, so I can only presume the pivot pin is on the wrong angle in the trailing arm from the factory.
I dont know which is worse, noticing the camber problem, or not being able to fix it. (-:
The tyre has worn more on the inside than other tyres, not dramaticly as yet.

Maybe I can  use the kit I ordered to do up a disc rear end from an xsi 205/306 in the long run.
I have had the thought, that if the ARB plate could be sealed, you could run some heavy gear oil in the tube, perhaps by
adding a fitting to the centre. If it was near the bottom you could drain it if need be, and with a clear hose tied up high, you could also see the level, and it would act as a breather.
Ron
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#13
In response to your earlier post, rotating the axle shaft 180 degrees is possible, but only if you strip down the beam and find very minimal wear.  You'd still need to change the bearings.

Your testing of the rear beam sounds pretty thourough.  It's really hard to get them to show free play when you've still got the torsion bars and the ARB attached though.  They hold everything together pretty tightly.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "...the pivot pin is on the wrong angle in the trailing arm from the factory".  Are you talking about the stub axle?  They can get bent, but normally that causes positive camber.  I think it's really unlikely either could be 'out of whack' from the factory because they're such a tight interference fit.

Unless you're worrying about having the right tools or the skills I'd still dismantle the beam to check the state of the bearings.   If you're intending on keeping the car long-term then it will give you peace of mind.  I imagine the fact that you have a much drier climate and don't get salt on your roads means it won't be rusted together like they are here!!!

As for getting an XSi beam, my understanding is that the larger/stiffer the torsion bar & ARB the more stress it puts on the bearings and the quicker they wear.  I might be wrong though ....maybe it's just that those cars get driven a lot harder.  Hence, if you need a beam tube the recommendation I've seen in the past is to get a low mileage beam from a base model & strip it down.  Also, if you uprate the rear suspension you should uprate the front to match, possibly making it a bigger job than you're happy with.
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#14
Yes, that is next step, to remove the torsion bars and AR bar. I have to find a 12mm fine threaded bolt today, I'm assuming "Ford bolt" is referring to a similar wheel bolt but for a Ford Focus or something.
And though the beam is tidy/new to look at the original grease will be $20 years old now.
If the XSi beam's pivot pins etc are no heavier, I wouldn't be gaining anything then.
I'm quite happy with the handling the way it is, I will adjust the height up a bit though. as I will be carrying moderate to heavy weight more often than not.
I think I learn't from one site that the rallye 306 would be just the standard 306 rear the same as mine, So that would be pointless
unless my housing was damaged, and probably still a gamble.
I wont withdraw the trailing arms until the new parts have arrived though.
I still like the idea of putting some oil in the housing before hand, It might melt a lot of the dried crud, and save the bearings when withdrawing the pivot through them.
In the long term oil in there might stop rust particles forming in the tube, or on the pivot for that matter.
I see now there is a bung behind the ARP plate, so it would be down to the outer seal for containing the oil, could only help prolong the seal life if it worked. The reason for water ingress could be due to lack of a breather, causing a vacuum when there is a cooling of the axle tube. Similar problem to boat trailers going into the water, hence the bearing buddy addons.
All this may sound a bit over the top, But my 306 is 100% rust free, and I have no reason to ever replace it.
The rust horror stories from European countries, makes me understand why Arabs came to NZ buying up all 504's to take back.
What can I say, now I have a few too many 405 diesel parts cars (at my NZ home) instead (-:
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#15
The new pivot pins and roller bearings arrived, but when releasing the torsion bars I found only a little play on both sides so I will keep the new parts for a later date/perhaps rebuild a disc rear end one day.
The torsion bars withdrew easily with a home made slide hammer, and this means the ARB plates can be left in place and rotated upwards after removing the arm locater bolts.
For height adjustment that would always be the case, as once the top of the shocks are remounted things are equal height both sides and the locater bolt holes should be aligned also.
My first attempt using an increased unloaded distance between the stub and the chassis reproduced the left side being higher than the right, but the finished car height was good.
The next time, I reduced the stub to chassis 10mm just on the left side, and finished measurements look good.
The excess camber appeared to be gone initially but turning the car around changed it back a bit, so the plan at the moment is to find a flat surface in both directions to check this. A bit of driving (a few thousand) may reveal I have to let off the left torsion bar even more.
I drilled and tapped a 5/16 unf hole to the left of the central jack point and put in 500 ml of straight 140 gear oil.
After a few days checking the level by the clear filler tube showed it to be about 1/3 full, so not a lot of capacity in there.
In the heat of the day the axle housing showed it was airtight by pushing oil back up the filler tube, so I have now put the bung in, and drilled a tiny hole just above the torsion bar to act as the breather, A sticky tape flap stops water from above running into it.
There is no seepage at the end seals yet, a little would be good seal lubrication anyway.
I guess a bouncy winding back road on a hot day would be a good test for any leakage.
Thanks for the guidance/experiences. The 205 axle rebuild guide mentions that L/R adjustment might have to be made, so it is probably not unusual for one side to be stronger than the other, may even always be the left side the strongest?
Cheers for now
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