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Non start 1.9D
#1
    Hi all. Just joined and am desperate for help. I inherited a low mileage 70k miles, 306 1.9D, May 1997. It has been starting and going lovely until the other night when I used it for a short trip. Came back to it about 3 hours later and while it turned over, it didn't fire. In fact it didn't even splutter. I couldn't see any smoke from exhaust.
I believe it is a Bosch pump. It doesn't say so anywhere but it seems to resemble other pictures/videos I've seen. I'll upload a pic when I work out how.
Though it sounds like lack of fuel, I checked voltage on glow plug busbar. All OK. Changed 3 glow plugs last winter so they should be OK. Measured 12V at stop solenoid. But no fuel from injector pipe when one cracked open. Also checked timing belt OK, by looking through cover at pump pulley. It was turning when cranked.
Took stop solenoid out. Surprised to see the shaft didn't have a spring. It didn't operate when I stuck 12V across it. So I cut off plunger and refitted. Still no joy!!!! Charged battery over night in case it was low. Tried this morning same thing.
This pump has some wires to rear. Are these to advance the timing? 
What else can I try?
Cheers Bri
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#2
When you squeeze the fuel prime grenade does it get hard (as in fuel is primed as much as possible?).

If you're not getting fuel from the injector, and the fuel solenoid valve is removed, then work back from there.

Check where fuel is getting to. If you are pushing fuel into the pump, and it starts, then you have an air leak somewhere.

If you're pushing fuel into the pump, with no solenoid valve then it would be an issue with the pump which can be diagnosed if you identify where the issue is coming from.

Should be able to pin this one down though, good luck
[Image: 22f2b6b2-758b-4c1c-96fb-6fa9c6059b13_zpsf306b56b.jpg]
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#3
(21-05-2018, 02:43 AM)Dave Wrote: When you squeeze the fuel prime grenade does it get hard (as in fuel is primed as much as possible?).

If you're not getting fuel from the injector, and the fuel solenoid valve is removed, then work back from there.

Check where fuel is getting to. If you are pushing fuel into the pump, and it starts, then you have an air leak somewhere.

If you're pushing fuel into the pump, with no solenoid valve then it would be an issue with the pump which can be diagnosed if you identify where the issue is coming from.

Should be able to pin this one down though, good luck

Hi Dave. Thanks for replying. Primer takes about 3 squeezes before it goes firm. Leave it a while and same again. Possibly weak one way valve in bulb. However it started with no hesitation until that fateful night, so I don't think it had air leak problem, before anyway.
I need to repeat some of the things I checked. Just to get my head right.
I noticed the solenoid had/has no obvious gasket. How does it seal against fuel loss and air leaks?
I'll add a pic of the solenoid.
Initially I tried to remove the rubber pad at the end of the shaft, hence the damage. In the end I had to hacksaw the shaft.
But there was no spring to force the shaft out of the solenoid. Is that normal?
Will have another look at the weekend.
Cheers Bri

Photo didn't load correctly ??


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#4
    Another attempt to load a pic of the solenoid.
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#5
Wow not sure what you needed to hack the end of the plunger off for.

Pull it out with a pair of pliers, along with the spring behind it. This will allow fuel to the injectors, and eliminate this as an ignition problem. The plunger is compression seal on the body of the pump, and this is all relatively low pressure <150psi at this connection unlike the HP side of the pump that the fuel drops into (the rubber plunger simply slops the fuel being able to drop into the piston cylinder side of the HP pump).

If you have fuel in the pump, and is primed well, you have no solenoid plunger installed, then there must be an issue with the pump itself, possibly something has snapped inside? I would definitely do some further investigating on the other points first though before jumping to conclusions because these pumps simply never fail just like that without a hint of issue . . . . . the aim being to get fuel through to the injector lines.
[Image: 22f2b6b2-758b-4c1c-96fb-6fa9c6059b13_zpsf306b56b.jpg]
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#6
(23-05-2018, 07:38 AM)Dave Wrote: Wow not sure what you needed to hack the end of the plunger off for.

Pull it out with a pair of pliers, along with the spring behind it. This will allow fuel to the injectors, and eliminate this as an ignition problem. The plunger is compression seal on the body of the pump, and this is all relatively low pressure <150psi at this connection unlike the HP side of the pump that the fuel drops into (the rubber plunger simply slops the fuel being able to drop into the piston cylinder side of the HP pump).

If you have fuel in the pump, and is primed well, you have no solenoid plunger installed, then there must be an issue with the pump itself, possibly something has snapped inside? I would definitely do some further investigating on the other points first though before jumping to conclusions because these pumps simply never fail just like that without a hint of issue . . . . . the aim being to get fuel through to the injector lines.

As mentioned earlier,  there was no spring on solenoid shaft. Shaft was contained by  valve. Tried pulling it with valve in vice. No joy . Hence resorted to cutting it off.
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#7
Took solenoid out again.  There is a rubber o ring seal. It was in the hole. Testing the solenoid on a battery i found the shaft moves out when energised, not in!. Not what i expected or have read elsewhere . Looking in the hole on the pump i can see a spring. Solenoid seems to operate every time it is connected . So may not have been at fault. Itried fitting the cut off end of shaft followed by the solenoid . It seems to energise but still no fuel from injector pipe. Will have to source a replacement solenoid to eliminate it. Had good look listen for air leaks. Nothing found.
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#8
Fitted new solenoid.  Still won't start . Question.  The injector leak off pipes connect to a pipe from the pump, which then returns to the tank. If there was an air leak here, would it be a problem ? I understand on the input side of the pump it would be a problem.
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#9
Changed fuel filter, had one before this happened. Primer can move diesel through filter and into see through pipe to pump. Air bubbles disappear from clear pipe. Still not starting. 
As above would an air leak on leak off pipe cause a problem ? 
My last thing to try is to make a small header tank connected directly to pump. Fill with fuel. If that fails it has to be the pump?
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#10
Latest things I've tried:
Removed leak off pipe where it connects to pump outlet (pipe then goes back to tank). 
Pressing primer bulb with ignition off, fuel emerges from pump return (puzzled by this as solenoid not energised???).
Cranking engine more fuel emerges. Think this confirms pump is actually being turned by timing belt.
Loosening off injector pipe union, still no fuel when cranked.
Would this point to a pump failure?
Is there anything else I can try other than a different pump?
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#11
Yes. I have an idea.

Is that your actual pump in the top pic? Because I believe that "solenoid" you've removed isn't a solenoid.

Your actual stop solenoid us underneath a steel armour - which I can see in your very first photo isn't removed.

Can you show a picture showing where you removed this valve from?

Underneath that armour houses the immobliser chips as well so you can't simply cut through it, you need to remove the bolts.

My money is on an immobliser fault, not the pump. These pumps simply don't break in an unmodified state.
A moments silence please, for our brothers in the NAD-zone.
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#12
[attachment=31554 Wrote:Martin306 pid='622727' dateline='1528823464']Yes. I have an idea.

Is that your actual pump in the top pic? Because I believe that "solenoid" you've removed isn't a solenoid.

Your actual stop solenoid us underneath a steel armour - which I can see in your very first photo isn't removed.

Can you show a picture showing where you removed this valve from?

Underneath that armour houses the immobliser chips as well so you can't simply cut through it, you need to remove the bolts.

My money is on an immobliser fault, not the pump. These pumps simply don't break in an unmodified state.
Thanks for that Martin.  I assumed this pump didn't have the armour i have read about. The solenoid i changed is at the lower front of the pump. I did see the other wires to the rear, but have read elsewhere this is for timing advance. If that is armoue and the stop solenoid is under it .what the hell does the other one do?
Yes that top pic is actual pump, part no 0 460 484 132.
Cheers Bri     
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#13
I found a pic of a similar pump on fleabay. It has the solenoid at the bottom and another on top of the distrbuter. As Martin suggested, it looks like the stop solenoid is behind some armour.
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#14
This is the same pump as what's fitted to the TUD5B engines.
That solenoid you removed is for the timing advance on the bottom of the pump.

Those wires at the back of the pump are for the immobliser and stop solenoid.

There's 12v, negative and 2 serial wires. These are impossible to bypass i.e. you cannot power the solenoid directly.

On the assumption that stop solenoid failures are rare and it's a low mileage engine, and it stopped suddenly, I'm nearly willing to bet money on it being an immobliser or a wiring fault.

Check the black connector on the pump with the 4 wires, make sure the terminals are not corroded, same goes for the wiring where the engine loom meets the chassis loom. Use plenty of contact cleaner and maybe even an old toothbrush to move any corrosion if there is any in there.

If that still doesn't work, get someone with PP2k or Diagbox with Lexia to check the immobiliser is working as I don't remember these cars having immobiliser lights - I have a vague recollection that a friends 16V XSi had one though. it looks like a small green key and if it's flashing then it's not working or doesn't recognise your key.

If the immobiliser is working then you need to remove the armour and change the stop solenoid.

ALTERNATIVELY

You can remove the armour and put 12v straight onto the solenoid, the connector is push fit and not threaded but you can put a spade on the remote wire and use the original push fit cap.

The armour is difficult to remove but it can be done in place.
A moments silence please, for our brothers in the NAD-zone.
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#15
(13-06-2018, 05:21 PM)Martin306 Wrote: This is the same pump as what's fitted to the TUD5B engines.
That solenoid you removed is for the timing advance on the bottom of the pump.

Those wires at the back of the pump are for the immobliser and stop solenoid.

There's 12v, negative and 2 serial wires. These are impossible to bypass i.e. you cannot power the solenoid directly.

On the assumption that stop solenoid failures are rare and it's a low mileage engine, and it stopped suddenly, I'm nearly willing to bet money on it being an immobliser or a wiring fault.

Check the black connector on the pump with the 4 wires, make sure the terminals are not corroded, same goes for the wiring where the engine loom meets the chassis loom. Use plenty of contact cleaner and maybe even an old toothbrush to move any corrosion if there is any in there.

If that still doesn't work, get someone with PP2k or Diagbox with Lexia to check the immobiliser is working as I don't remember these cars having immobiliser lights - I have a vague recollection that a friends 16V XSi had one though. it looks like a small green key and if it's flashing then it's not working or doesn't recognise your key.

If the immobiliser is working then you need to remove the armour and change the stop solenoid.

ALTERNATIVELY

You can remove the armour and put 12v straight onto the solenoid, the connector is push fit and not threaded but you can put a spade on the remote wire and use the original push fit cap.

The armour is difficult to remove but it can be done in place.

Cheers Martin,
think there are 3 wires to the back of the pump. I have read 12V, 0V and signal. I am hoping it will be poor connection. Not sure I am up to de-armoring the pump. As I understand it, there is a little circuit board that controls the solenoid. Only when it gets the expected signal does it energise it.
Do you know what signal should be present on the signal wire? I only have a digital multimeter here, but could possibly borrow a scope. Does this come straight from the ignition barrel transponder pick up coil? 
BTW the key is a solid one. That is there is no central locking, no battery to change, and hence no chance of losing the transponder chip.
I have a Citroen Diagbox Peugeot Plant thingy. I needed it to trace an airbag light problem on the Berlingo. I noticed the 306 has the OBD socket, but assumed as it is such a simple diesel engine there would be no ECU to talk to. I think I did plug it in once but it never connected.

Its 4 wires to the back of the pump.
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#16
Okay so the signal wire carries the data from the transponder box. It will be impossible to interpret it - and there won't be a signal on it unless the system has fault free!

The transponder box, I'm not sure where exactly it is on a 306 but around the steering column lower shroud is usually where they are, or at the bottom of the middle of the dashboard.

If your car has an ECU, it'll be in the usual place behind the battery. My 106 had one, it's function was purely to control the pump timing and you could communicate with it. I'm pretty sure your car will have one, I can't see how else it could control the timing without it.

Definitely worth a plug in and see I think Smile
A moments silence please, for our brothers in the NAD-zone.
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#17
Tried the disconnect battery, ignition set to run, reconnect method to reset immob. No change.
Removed the connector that feeds the 4 wires into the back of the pump. From the harness to the connector the wires are coloured white, red green and green/yellow. They change colour from the connector to the pump. The inside of the connector was spotless, no dirt, corrosion.
The circuit diagram in the Haynes for the NAD late 97 shows 4 wires with the above colours going to the 'pump unit - anit theft'.
It describes the wires as follows:
White - Anti start
Red - Anti start
Green - Oil pressure switch
Green/yellow - ground.
Now another diagram shows the oil pressure switch as an open switch to ground. I assume switch is normally open, and when pressure is high enough switch closes and signal is grounded (but I could be wrong!).
Why would oil pressure be used in anti theft?
While cranking, the oil pressure light is on for a few seconds, then goes out. So I assume the switch is operating OK.
I measured the voltage on the 4 wires in the harness side of the connector, with ignition on and off (but not cranking).
Wire                  Ignition on           Ignition off
White                   11.4                     11.7    (battery volts = 12.5)
Red                      12.3                     0.06
Green                   0.03                     0.0
Green/yellow         0.01                     0.0
If the Green wire is from the oil pressure switch, it is showing close to 0V when no pressure, so perhaps the switch is normally closed and opens when pressure high enough ?
Unfortunately I don't have a multimeter that measures current via magnetic field coil, as that might tell me if solenoid is being switched or not.
Took key transponder pick up coil off steering column. Lifting cover I can see a PCB with contacts to the coil. All I could do was buzz out the coil. It gave a low resistance, so not open circuit.
Tried to trace wires from pick up module, but they disappear into loom and behind facia.
No sign of an ECU behind battery. There are some relays. One controlling vacuum for the EGR valve I think. Then there is the glowplug control box and another relay.
I tried my Lexia thing some time ago when the airbag light wouldn't go out. I never got it to communicate with the car.
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#18
You could use the oil pressure switch to stop the car from starting until it's above the switch pressure threshold - essentially like a pre-oiler which would reduce engine wear on startup. That's the only reason I can think it would be connected to the fuel pump. Or to prevent starting if the pressure switch is open circuit or unplugged.

The Oil pressure switch is normally open, and it closes when the pressure raises. If you unplug it (open) the warning light comes on.

Honestly if it was me, I'd be getting the grinder out lol
A moments silence please, for our brothers in the NAD-zone.
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#19
The oil pressure switch on this engine appears to be normally closed. With cable disconnected , light is off. Grounding wire brings light on. But no sound of solenoid click. 
Can armour really be cut with the pump fitted?
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#20
(16-06-2018, 05:27 PM)modmytop Wrote: The oil pressure switch on this engine appears to be normally closed. With cable disconnected , light is off. Grounding wire brings light on. But no sound of solenoid click. 
Can armour really be cut with the pump fitted?


Yes if you undo the hard fuel lines and very carefully.

For me the hardest part was getting the lock pin out at the top of the armour. I can take pictures and post them tonight showing where you need to cut if you like?
A moments silence please, for our brothers in the NAD-zone.
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#21
(17-06-2018, 12:23 PM)Martin306 Wrote:
(16-06-2018, 05:27 PM)modmytop Wrote: The oil pressure switch on this engine appears to be normally closed. With cable disconnected , light is off. Grounding wire brings light on. But no sound of solenoid click. 
Can armour really be cut with the pump fitted?


Yes if you undo the hard fuel lines and very carefully.

For me the hardest part was getting the lock pin out at the top of the armour. I can take pictures and post them tonight showing where you need to cut if you like?
Thanks Martin, some pictures would be helpful.
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#22
(17-06-2018, 05:24 PM)modmytop Wrote:
(17-06-2018, 12:23 PM)Martin306 Wrote:
(16-06-2018, 05:27 PM)modmytop Wrote: The oil pressure switch on this engine appears to be normally closed. With cable disconnected , light is off. Grounding wire brings light on. But no sound of solenoid click. 
Can armour really be cut with the pump fitted?


Yes if you undo the hard fuel lines and very carefully.

For me the hardest part was getting the lock pin out at the top of the armour. I can take pictures and post them tonight showing where you need to cut if you like?
Thanks Martin, some pictures would be helpful.

I took a short video, my internet is terrible at the house but it's uploading now. I'll link when it's finished!

https://youtu.be/t4sxCXsVUxI

https://youtu.be/sXycYfUf7fk

Didn't even bother editing them haha just a general idea.
A moments silence please, for our brothers in the NAD-zone.
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#23
Nice vids Martin. Good reference for anyone undertaking this task. Thanks for taking the time to post them.
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#24
(18-06-2018, 08:32 PM)modmytop Wrote: Nice vids Martin.  Good reference for anyone undertaking this task. Thanks for taking the time to post them.

Thanks man

I'll probably replace the 2 videos with 1 that's slightly better, and holding the camera the correct way up! Maybe script it and actually have this thing called organisation  Itwasntme

Forgot to mention you may need to take off the big 13mm bolt at the bottom, I'm not sure if it's there on a 306* but it'll be obvious if you miss that  Exclamation

*because on a 306 you rotate the whole pump to adjust the timing and on a 106 the pulley is on an adjustable hub so it's got an extra support bolt on the pump at the back as it doesn't need to move.
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#25
Hi all. Decided to tackle armour with pump still fitted. Probably not best decision, but was concerned about the tamper proof bolts.
5 inch grinder across top right edge, front and back edges.
Then used (Lidl bought) Dremel type tool to make horizontal cut. 

   

Have to say pretty impressed with the tool. Thought the little cutting wheels/discs wouldn't last, but because they are thinner than the angle grinder discs you cut less metal. The problem is you have to hold the dremel absolutely vertical. If not, the disc breaks.

After removing top section for a look, decided to cut sides down further. Then used the hole that the immobilizer wires enter to save a bit of cutting. Unfortunately I should have gone a bit lower, as mentioned in a while.

After removing this 2nd section, I could see what I assume was the immobilizer module. I hacked into this with hammer and chisel. You work through the circuit board followed by some gelatin like sealant. 

   

This revealed a plastic base held by 2 allen bolts, with a wire visible at the top going behind the plastic (to the solenoid). The hole I made wasn't big enough get this plastic base out, so I hacked at the bottom of it. Then I realised the top half was actually a metal box covered in plastic. It slid towards the hole, but was just slightly too big. So dremel again to cut a bit of the armour around the original immobilizer wire hole. 

   

Eventually the metal box slid out to reveal the shut off solenoid. Red wire from the immobilizer loom, previously measured as switched 12V, connected to solenoid wire.

   

Then she started first turn of the key!

So thanks guys for the help and your patience.

If the solenoid had been faulty, not sure I could get it out without more cutting.
Should have wrapped crimp with insulation tape when I had access.
Need to set cold start cable, as removed this. Note also removed throttle cable and top right fuel line to allow grinder access.

Inlet air pipes look pretty bad. The ones closer to the battery are the worst. Presumably crankcase breather fumes being recirculated through air distribution chamber.
   
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#26
Glad you've got it going! Smile

It must have been unable to read the key for some reason. Not that is matters now!

My 106 inlet was like that, I put a wire pipe cleaner into a drill to do my inlet manifold. Not much else can go up there!
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