is it worth putting a induction kit on a hdi??????

[raymond76]

as the it says is it worth it?

[4WayDiablo]

Not if your selling it :-P but not really on a hdi just a decent panel filter :-)

[raymond76]

i have a old k&n and some pipeing but i wont bother if its not worth it, but all the time i own the car i will proberley try doing things to it, i cant help it i get bored so have to keep doing bits... did the arm rest go by the way?

[4WayDiablo]

Matt has gone all quiet I'll give him a pm and if not it can be going your way

[raymond76]

cool let me know m8

[devils_fuel]

I thought about this for my TD, I was told to get a k&n panel filter as it will slightly increase torque and make the car more drivable compared to a cone filter...but 40 for one that fits in the oem air box...sounds wrong lol

[Ruan]

The stock system flows fairly well up until the usual bends in the pipework... You won't gain a massive amount by fitting one, you'd only notice a difference if it was restricting it... Which I'm going to guess the stock one isn't...

[Toms306]

Gotta ask the important question though......does it sound better with a cone? Can't say I've listened to a deisel with a cone so dont know?

Im still umming and arring whether to go for a cone with caf or just an uprated panel without caf for my car lol.....

[raymond76]

i suppose as long as it dosnt make it perform worse you have nothing t lose, and the better the air flow the better it breaths so !!!
screw it im going to do it , it will give me somthing to do today if nothing else lol

[Mr Whippy]

I'd avoid a cone really.

In all my diagnostic runs out with customers cars an open filter under the bonnet is usually sucking in about 10degC more than ambient air temperature, or more in summer and slower driving!

In one case it was a 20degC day and the IAT (intake air temp) was up at 40degC, and it took about 10mins/5miles of driving to get it down to 30degC.
In contrast, the standard system intake temp is about 5degC above ambient at the very worst, and within 100 metres of driving it is usually at or 1degC above ambient air temp!

That 10-20degC can be costing you 5-10bhp on a stage 1 tuned car! The MAF sensor see's the higher air temp, and as such reads a lower MAF reading, thus not fuelling as much as it could at any given point!


Even if you direct cool air at the cone, you then lose out on the ram air effect of the standard intake system.


I'd invest some money in the exhaust as the gains there both improve turbo response (less laggy), improve the sound, and add overall power!

Dave

[raymond76]

sounds like more sound advice, i have a decat at the mo snd the rest is standared is it worth removing the centre box and get a decent rear silencer?

[Eeyore]

depends if you want to look cool or not! I would stick with the stock airbox and just put in a decent panel filter!

[Toms306]

Are there any particular uprated panel filter makes you'd recommend Dave?

[Eeyore]

Are there any particular uprated panel filter makes you'd recommend Dave?

K&N surely? Or green.... Green something or other?

[Toms306]

Are there any particular uprated panel filter makes you'd recommend Dave?

K&N surely? Or green.... Green something or other?

Green cotton....

But you're not Dave..... . I guess he might know some good ones from road runs like with the cones above......

[ben87]

i have a cone purely for a bit better sound coming from the engine rather than my squeaky aux belt atm haha

[Mr Whippy]

Are there any particular uprated panel filter makes you'd recommend Dave?

K&N surely? Or green.... Green something or other?

None of them.

I think Pete (TB205) might have the link, but someone over in mainland Europe tested a bunch of filters years back on a 206 HDi with ~ 150bhp.

They tested OEM, uprated paper, cones, panel K&N's, yadda yadda.

They all made within about 2bhp of each other on a dyno (149-151bhp). They even tried it without a filter housing at all (MAF direct to air), and it still made about 150bhp

Given the fact it was on a dyno also means you won't have seen the benefits of the standard airbox on reducing heat soaking, and also won't have seen the benefit of the standard airbox on ram air intake effect.


The standard HDi90 intake system on the 306 is amazing basically

Spend money on the exhaust is my only bit of advice really. Anything there is an improvement (for performance and sound which is what we are looking for anyway)



As for exhaust mods, the standard centre section is very good.

If I were doing a HDi tune again I'd simply source a spare centre section, remove the OEM back box, replace it with my spare centre section, and then weld the OEM tip back on the back (chrome oval jobby) Then the usual de-cat.
That is what I ran on my 306 HDi with stg1 and stg2 and it was great and very cheap... a good sound and good free-flow performance.

It was even better with the centre box removed and just a centre box at the rear, but it was quite loud... and totally intolerable once the FMIC went on haha... some people may like it that loud but I didn't



Ignore anyone selling any kit/component for the HDi intake side unless they have some fantastic proof to show it's actually worth while!

I might get around to it one day relatively soon. 3D printing in ABS is getting pretty advanced now so I'm sorely tempted to build something that fits onto the OEM mounts, but feeds straight off an enlarged intake trumpet and then directly into a larger filter housing. Then just a flexi-mount onto the MAF.

But even still I'd want to test it to make sure it actually worked. That is where mainstreams go wrong. They make it and in theory it might work, but in practice it might not work, but then they retail it to you anyway at huge cost haha

Dave

[Toms306]

Ah thats interesting, I'll stick with an OE filter then, cheers! :think:

[Poodle]

Wtf is everyone's obsession with K&N green cotton bs? Time and time again you're told by pro's they're not worth the money; shown dyno proof they're not worth the money; people post their experiences explaining and demonstrating they're not worth the money... Yet, every time someone mentions induction...

Really does amaze me what you can do with a bit of marketing bs and some gullible punters.

[Toms306]

Wtf is everyone's obsession with K&N green cotton bs? Time and time again you're told by pro's they're not worth the money; shown dyno proof they're not worth the money; people post their experiences explaining and demonstrating they're not worth the money... Yet, every time someone mentions induction...

Really does amaze me what you can do with a bit of marketing bs and some gullible punters.

But they sound awesome!

I think the thing is, I'm used to slow petrols...where adding an induction kit makes them 'feel' faster by adding bwarp, and the heatsoak doesn't seem to affect them much as they're already slow.......

But when you get to big powered diesels its more about the 'flow' than sound from the filter........I genuinely thought the OEM panel may have been slightly more restrictive than say a foam piperX or something, so I'm glad Mr Whippy can show they're not.....

[Mr Whippy]

Induction kits on HDi's don't really add that much in my view.

The exhaust gets you a better noise on a diesel... you get the good bits of the noise a diesel makes, rather than the bad bits...

A petrol with induction kit sounds better because it's throttled, so you get that dynamic audio as you go to full throttle. On a diesel it just sounds the same all the time...

Wheras the exhaust sound on a diesel is very much controlled by the throttle (and thus fuelling), and thus you get the enjoyable dynamic sound you really want!


Dave

[Ruan]

I've found that the stock intake system PAST the air filter is the problem... The actual filter itself is bloody good, but the piping past there is horribly restrictive, especially if you're changing turbos, hybrids and the like...

DTs with a cone filter on the stock intake just sound TRAGIC, that typical low bellow the entire time, and it sounds jank... Haven't heard a HDI, but I'm going to assume they also sound jank, unless you've got a piece of 3" pipe going down to the turbo and a mahoosive filter on the end, they tend to just sound crap as it muffles out the compressor noise, but accentuates the typical induction drone...

[devils_fuel]

Induction kits on HDi's don't really add that much in my view.

The exhaust gets you a better noise on a diesel... you get the good bits of the noise a diesel makes, rather than the bad bits...

A petrol with induction kit sounds better because it's throttled, so you get that dynamic audio as you go to full throttle. On a diesel it just sounds the same all the time...

Wheras the exhaust sound on a diesel is very much controlled by the throttle (and thus fuelling), and thus you get the enjoyable dynamic sound you really want!


Dave

Very knowledgable and well explained, thanks Dave, I was thinking of a k&n oem replacement but think I'll save the £40 if theres no benefits at all

[Mr Whippy]

Don't save the £40, spend it on exhaust mods

You get better value for money too. I'm sure mr exhaust place will give you more for your money after their costs, than mr air filter who probably make about 500% mark up on their air filters that do nothing!


Cheers

Dave

[Mr Whippy]

I've found that the stock intake system PAST the air filter is the problem... The actual filter itself is bloody good, but the piping past there is horribly restrictive, especially if you're changing turbos, hybrids and the like...

DTs with a cone filter on the stock intake just sound TRAGIC, that typical low bellow the entire time, and it sounds jank... Haven't heard a HDI, but I'm going to assume they also sound jank, unless you've got a piece of 3" pipe going down to the turbo and a mahoosive filter on the end, they tend to just sound crap as it muffles out the compressor noise, but accentuates the typical induction drone...

Is that the HDi that is bad beyond the air filter?

Generally the MAF is a bottle neck really. A bigger one would improve flow.


As per the Td, the intake isn't really that hot on those. It's not bad by any means, but it's not as good as the HDi one I wouldn't say.
I always thought a wide scoop under the engine area firing into an enclosed cone right on the head of the compressor would be ideal on a Td hehe...
You WOULD need to avoid puddles though

Dave

[Ruan]

The HDi one seems pretty restrictive, whenever I've put ANYTHING on the turbo of my car, it pulls power down...

I'd be very interested to see some results from a HDi with no intake system at all, simply turbo to air... And yeah, the MAF is a ballache... Is there no way on these to convert to MAP based and go without a MAF - putting a bigger one on involves recalibration, sure it's not ideal as far as economy and precision metering goes, but for stage 2+? IIRC I remember someone saying they're WAY out of their range past about 130hp, so apart from idle and cruising, they're pretty pointless anyway?

Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

[Toms306]

Don't save the £40, spend it on exhaust mods

I've just bought a de-cat instead of an uprated filter....

[Mr Whippy]

The HDi one seems pretty restrictive, whenever I've put ANYTHING on the turbo of my car, it pulls power down...

I'd be very interested to see some results from a HDi with no intake system at all, simply turbo to air... And yeah, the MAF is a ballache... Is there no way on these to convert to MAP based and go without a MAF - putting a bigger one on involves recalibration, sure it's not ideal as far as economy and precision metering goes, but for stage 2+? IIRC I remember someone saying they're WAY out of their range past about 130hp, so apart from idle and cruising, they're pretty pointless anyway?

Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Yeah the pipe running from MAF > turbo might not be ideal. I can't say it's gonna be THAT bad though. At speed the OEM system should be in almost positive pressure due to the ram air intake effect. I've never checked, but lets say it evens out the intake drag losses we should hopefully not have to worry about the intake at all.
To run something different would be a risk, you are much more likely to make something worse than better unless you have lots of test equipment and are happy to go back to the drawing board a lot, and have the engine half out a lot

Yeah, people can run MAP rather than MAF for smoke control. I'm assuming there is a good reason for running MAF vs MAP though...
I'm not certain, but running off MAF means the air is measured before the turbo so before the feedback loop system, while MAP is run post turbo... so perhaps you become more at the mercy of the turbo responding before you move 'up' the smoke map?! Maybe it makes steady state smoke tuning harder, but in return you get better response tuning for getting onto boost?!


The standard MAF seems to run enough for loads of fuelling mid-range for torque, but yes, as revs rise you are limited and that means limited power.
The thing is, you may as well just tune the smoke map to be clean till the last step, then on the last step adjust it for max fuelling you want, and adjust the mapping accordingly. The time you will ever end up in that window where the smoke map isn't perfect will be fairly damn narrow. The MAF will 'read' for maybe 160bhp nicely, but it'll 'flow' enough air for probably double that power if you really wanted it to
It'd just be a restriction rather than a useful air meter at that point though

I don't have my laptop going now but I've got loads of plots of actual MAF readings vs rpm, both g/s and mm.3/stroke, and I'm fairly certain that an FMIC is still giving 'nice' MAF readings at 150bhp... it might just be getting out of range, maybe at 140bhp, but since the smoke map itself is so granular anyway, the last step takes you from enough flow from 140-150bhp anyway (ie, as above you'd never notice the point where good metering ended as you'd never be there except at FULL throttle at near 4000rpm)


I'd say just with a good hybrid (the right one, matched specifically for the peaks you wanted, not pie in the sky 'future dreams' outputs), you could land yourself with 180bhp/275lbft at 4000rpm/2500rpm respectively. So just a normal HDi with a good clutch and FMIC, and the right turbo of course.
Beyond that your HP pump is struggling as much as the MAF sensor is at doing nice metering. Your injectors are open a long time at high rpm (not ideal), so they are struggling and would be best being opened for less time with more rail pressure, so running an upgraded sensor.

150bhp is about the standard limit with fmic.

No one seems to be going to what is obviously the next bottleneck, the turbo. That takes you to about 180bhp I'd say.

Then it's onto the whole 'stage 3 (probably should be stg4 really?)' where you go for pump, rail sensor, injector tips maybe, even bigger turbo specs etc.


Gah, I so want a HDi to tinker with again... first job would be FMIC and then set my sights for the 'new' stage3, a properly matched turbo and 180/275 outputs on otherwise standard bits

Dave

[lolsteve]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAIxeQUS ... AAAAAAACAA

Visual aid that cone dont work

[Mr Whippy]

Haha

Great video.

Yet on the other hand, £50 spent on a decat for a diesel will add visible overall power gains and improved throttle/turbo response, and improve the sound quality... but who is making HDi decats? Gap in the market me thinks

Dave