Duggan Case

[Kezzieboy]

Was merely using black people as an example, it can be extended to any ethnic minority, or if we're talking about employment then women too. If you honestly believe Political Correctness is actually a sign that we're no longer a racist society rather than just something else for people to moan about then I can't help but think you're a little naive. Racism is alive and well, although thankfully it seems to be declining, no thanks to the media.

I don't really understand the second part, you seem to be agreeing with me, that it's crime being committed by the poor (you beautifully support my argument by using the polish as an example, another ethnic minority), my point is that the poor tend to be minorities because of the inherent racism in this country.

[Niall]

Was merely using black people as an example, it can be extended to any ethnic minority, or if we're talking about employment then women too. If you honestly believe Political Correctness is actually a sign that we're no longer a racist society rather than just something else for people to moan about then I can't help but think you're a little naive. Racism is alive and well, although thankfully it seems to be declining, no thanks to the media.

I don't really understand the second part, you seem to be agreeing with me, that it's crime being committed by the poor (you beautifully support my argument by using the polish as an example, another ethnic minority), my point is that the poor tend to be minorities because of the inherent racism in this country.

I do believe that racism is still about on a personal level but on a company (e.g, being employed) level, i don't think it is because most companies would get destroyed for not employing someone based on their ethnicity (unless of course somehow it stopped them from doing the job).

I dont agree with the fact that crime is being committed by the poor. Your saying that its typically black youths that commit crime due to their back grounds but what I'm saying is in a area such as Tottenham where the population is largely black people (funny really that Srowell lives near there!), you can't say that they are committing crimes just due to their back ground. Its simple really that if the population is majority made up of one type of people, then crime will mostly be committed by them. Its like saying if 9 out of 10 cars on the road are silver, most accidents will be with silver cars...because theres more of them.
I also used the polish as an example because they were the first to come into my head and they are by no means a minority in London. In fact, english are the minority in London now!

[Dum-Dum]

Was merely using black people as an example, it can be extended to any ethnic minority, or if we're talking about employment then women too.

I don't think you can extend what happens within certain minority groups to what happens in all minority groups. There is areas of London where "white British" is an ethnic minority but you don't hear them bleating about it.

There is racism in this country but alot of what is called racist isn't and alot of the actual racism goes unseen.

[budd]

I'm glad you see that there is an underlying issue, and that it wasn't just mindless violence and thievery from the start, unlike most people seem to think.

I doubt I'd cope well in that sort of situation, I'm fairly sure I'd freeze in panic and get shot, but as I say, that's why I'm not in the armed response and I don't think it's unfair to expect those chosen to be in those situations to be incredibly calm, focussed and prepared.

I still think you're wrong about the treatment of ethnic minorities though. Racism is still rife in this country, and I'm sure the police are better than most segments of society, but I still think it's fair to say that minorities are treated unfairly by the authorities. You also have to look further back to why there are more black youths committing crime, and that's due to their socio-economic backgrounds, stemming from their disadvantages in employment and careers, which is at least in part due to racism. It's a bit of a chicken and egg argument, but the more marginalised those committing crime feel, the more likely they are to commit crime, and so that feeds the statistics, it's a vicious cycle.

I definitely don’t agree with the Racism argument here, I also don’t agree minorities are treated unfairly, we are probably the most tolerant country in the world, comparing the UK’s human rights record with almost any other country on the planet will demonstrate this.
I do agree that generally socio-economic conditions breed crime and ultimately civil unrest, but this isn’t necessarily caused by race, you only have to look around the world, every country in the world will have areas that have high unemployment, poor housing, deprivation or some sort of oppression, ie shanty towns in Brazil, unemployment in Greece, social oppression in Russia and China etc , all of these have areas which are equally or more ‘charged’ than Tottenham, ever will be, the fact that there isn’t as much actual civil unrest in these places is largely down to the extreme response of the local authorities remember the peace protests in tiananmen square ? this wasn’t to do with race or minorities, in the same way organised crime in the Baltic’s isn’t about race, fact is the way we respond to adversity is human nature it's just in the UK racism is the perfect excuse.

[Dum-Dum]

I might add that with the statistics regarding crime and who is committing it that I am entirely confident that the Police only deal with the stupid end of the spectrum and this skews the spectrum. There is evidence to suggest that people on lower incomes have lower IQ and criminals tend to have lower IQs also. IIRC there is also data regarding IQs of certain ethnic groups and so you could probably work out something clever with that but it all starts getting a bit analytics/big data for me

[Kezzieboy]

I do believe that racism is still about on a personal level but on a company (e.g, being employed) level, i don't think it is because most companies would get destroyed for not employing someone based on their ethnicity (unless of course somehow it stopped them from doing the job).

I dont agree with the fact that crime is being committed by the poor. Your saying that its typically black youths that commit crime due to their back grounds but what I'm saying is in a area such as Tottenham where the population is largely black people (funny really that Srowell lives near there!), you can't say that they are committing crimes just due to their back ground.

You're right, it's now very hard to discriminate against people due to their ethnic background, which is good, but it will be many years before the very recent legislation governing this starts making an impact. In other words it'll be another 20 years minimum before minorities (whether that is due to race, gender or sexuality) are fairly represented in the upper levels of business and politics.

So who is committing the crime? Don't find many middle class thieves, or upper class vandals I don't imagine. I don't know enough about London to comment on how affluent different areas are or aren't, but I'm guessing most of the gang related crime and petty crime is in poor areas. Many of which consist largely of minorities due to the inequities within our society.

I don't think you can extend what happens within certain minority groups to what happens in all minority groups. There is areas of London where "white British" is an ethnic minority but you don't hear them bleating about it.

There is racism in this country but alot of what is called racist isn't and alot of the actual racism goes unseen.

But in they are residential areas, I imagine the police in those areas, and those in other positions of power are still dominated massively by White British Males.

I definitely don’t agree with the Racism argument here, I also don’t agree minorities are treated unfairly, we are probably the most tolerant country in the world, comparing the UK’s human rights record with almost any other country on the planet will demonstrate this.
I do agree that generally socio-economic conditions breed crime and ultimately civil unrest, but this isn’t necessarily caused by race, you only have to look around the world, every country in the world will have areas that have high unemployment, poor housing, deprivation or some sort of oppression, ie shanty towns in Brazil, unemployment in Greece, social oppression in Russia and China etc , all of these have areas which are equally or more ‘charged’ than Tottenham, ever will be, the fact that there isn’t as much actual civil unrest in these places is largely down to the extreme response of the local authorities remember the peace protests in tiananmen square ? this wasn’t to do with race or minorities, in the same way organised crime in the Baltic’s isn’t about race, fact is the way we respond to adversity is human nature it's just in the UK racism is the perfect excuse.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, I wish I had the necessary statistics on tap, but I'll have to wait until I can find some of the studies I have read about the subject.

Yes, Britain is infinitely more fair than countries like Russia and those in the developing/third world and even than the USA by a country mile. However, that doesn't mean we should stop pushing for complete equality in our country, does it? There ARE countries that are better than us in terms of human rights and equality, so we can continue to improve.

I'm not saying ALL unrest is a result of race, that would be absurd. I was speaking specifically about areas of London and wider areas of the country. And I did say the causes run deeper than simple racism, it's due to the economic inequality at every level, much of which is due to the discrimination against various minorities that is still rife today, and was FAR worse as little as 20 years ago.

I might add that with the statistics regarding crime and who is committing it that I am entirely confident that the Police only deal with the stupid end of the spectrum and this skews the spectrum. There is evidence to suggest that people on lower incomes have lower IQ and criminals tend to have lower IQs also. IIRC there is also data regarding IQs of certain ethnic groups and so you could probably work out something clever with that but it all starts getting a bit analytics/big data for me

What's the stupid end of the spectrum?

Sweeping statements about the IQ of people based on race or economic background are pushing your luck, mate. Find some actual evidence and then I'll listen.

Ooh, here's another one, why are as a society do we (and the press) focus on what is essentially petty crime, and tend to ignore far more significant crime such as the massive tax evasion committed by high profile companies like Google and our beloved Phillip Green (of Arcadia group).

[Midnightclub]

[THE_Liam]

A couple of points I'd like to make. I don't buy the socioeconomic reasons that people commit crime in this country. To commit a crime is a choice not something you're forced into because of where you live, you certainly don't have to commit crime to survive in this country. You either choose to be a good person or you don't, it's down to morals. I grew up very poor, my dad was in and out of prison and my mother had a drinking problem, but I've never been convicted of a crime and have a good job and own my own house. I made a choice not to follow my parents.

Secondly, racism again is mo excuse for committing a crime. My family came here as immigrants in the 1940s and found it hard to find work due to prejudice, but with hard work and perseverance got to a decent place in life.

It's all about choices and taking responsibility for your actions.

[Chris28190]

This

[Niall]

Ooh, here's another one, why are as a society do we (and the press) focus on what is essentially petty crime, and tend to ignore far more significant crime such as the massive tax evasion committed by high profile companies like Google and our beloved Phillip Green (of Arcadia group).

Because people now days are lazy and believe far too much of what the media say which 9 times out of 10, is never factual. The media will ALWAYS blow things out of proportion or bend the truth to make things seem different. This is proved by the amount of people now days who spend their time slating the government for how they run this country. Where do they get these stats from to base their opinions? News papers and the news which is all just utter bollocks imo.
I always take everything in the news with a pinch of salt because I've seen via my company first hand how they can twist things to make companies and people out to be bad or in the wrong just because they want to spark an argument or keep people interested news. Don't forget, bad news is good news to the media and how often do you hear stories of good news? You don't really because they always want to keep you interested and going back to them for more bad stories just to argue with people over.

[Kezzieboy]

A couple of points I'd like to make. I don't buy the socioeconomic reasons that people commit crime in this country. To commit a crime is a choice not something you're forced into because of where you live, you certainly don't have to commit crime to survive in this country. You either choose to be a good person or you don't, it's down to morals. I grew up very poor, my dad was in and out of prison and my mother had a drinking problem, but I've never been convicted of a crime and have a good job and own my own house. I made a choice not to follow my parents.

Secondly, racism again is mo excuse for committing a crime. My family came here as immigrants in the 1940s and found it hard to find work due to prejudice, but with hard work and perseverance got to a decent place in life.

It's all about choices and taking responsibility for your actions.

I'm not giving an excuse, merely pointing out that there is a very clear correlation, and that if we lived in a fairer society these problems would be minimised. However we prefer to focus on symptomatic problems rather that their root causes.

It is down to morals, you're right, but nobody cares about middle-class crime, such as fiddling your tax returns, people getting expensive accountants to minimise the tax they pay. People prefer to have a moan about the [insert minority group] robbing their corner shop. Crime is crime, it's just that the crime committed by those from a lower social standing is more visible.

There is almost always a reason other than just a lack of morals for committing a crime, and generally it is greed, but it's the greed of those who have plenty that riles me more than the greed of those who have very little.

Where did they migrate from? Surely that experience makes you want to strive towards equality within this country, so people don't have to suffer what your family was put through?

[Dum-Dum]

I might add that with the statistics regarding crime and who is committing it that I am entirely confident that the Police only deal with the stupid end of the spectrum and this skews the spectrum. There is evidence to suggest that people on lower incomes have lower IQ and criminals tend to have lower IQs also. IIRC there is also data regarding IQs of certain ethnic groups and so you could probably work out something clever with that but it all starts getting a bit analytics/big data for me

What's the stupid end of the spectrum?

Sweeping statements about the IQ of people based on race or economic background are pushing your luck, mate. Find some actual evidence and then I'll listen.

The stupid end of the spectrum of intelligence mate. I am sure there is people out there committing crimes so beautifully well thought out that they will never get caught and even if they do will be incredibly difficult to prosecute. The police by and large deal with the incredibly stupid, the people who deal drugs outside the police station, the bloke who walks around at 3am with 2 stolen sat navs, and car chargers then claims them to be his mothers even though she doesn't own a car and cant drive as she is in a wheelchair, the lad who beats up his mother while she is on the phone to the police so they can hear everything. Yep, 3 cases from the last 3 days from my work. Surely you can see the stupid and how they make it very easy for us to catch them?

As for the statistics regarding background and IQ I'm not pushing my luck at all, the research is out there and don't take my word on it mate, have a google, its all there.

[budd]

The problem with reports/ surveys/ statistics etc is the results are open to interruption, the same data can be made to support various theories, politicians love this as it allows them to give credibility to their arguments and also provide lucrative ‘jobs for the boys’ in various think tanks, committees and research panels.
Problems in London? UKip would have you believe it’s all down to minorities and uncontrolled immigration, the Labour left would say it’s down to rampant racism in the Police and white middle classes, the Tories will say whatever suits at the time, all this supported by reports, commissioned with the express purpose of propping up party policy. I haven’t mentioned the Lib Dems but as they are largely irrelevant I won’t bother.
The answer vote none of the above, I firmly believe that every ballot paper should contain a box for ‘none of the above’, I think that would reveal what the voting public really think and I’d hazard a guess none of the main parties would be happy with the results

[Dum-Dum]

I haven’t mentioned the Lib Dems but as they are largely irrelevant so I won’t bother.

You sir have rep.

[budd]

I haven’t mentioned the Lib Dems but as they are largely irrelevant I won’t bother.

You sir have rep.