Info on a cam.

[Foxy-jim]

Hi guys,

I have been reading up on fast road cams and looking at what cam woul dbe good for my engine. I have been looking around on the cat cam website along with others and just wondered if ayone could give me a bit more detail on their performance increases?

I have read somewhere that low end torque will suffer, but it will rev higher. And read on other places that both bhp and torque will increase.

Its hard finding 8v specific info online!

I was also looking at using a bakerBM lightened camshaft pulley along with a cam upgrade!

Thanks!

[Ed Doe]

Youll need to allow around 400quid fir decent mapping, and iirc the cam will cost around 300; hence for the money you're way better off putting a bigger engine in...

In regard to differences in power delivery and performance; you'll be able torev t her, you will lose some lowend torque but you will gain power higher in the rev band. It will increase torque too but youll have to rev it more to acess it.
In summary, with the price gti's can be had for these days, youd be mad to spend the money on a 1.4...

[Foxy-jim]

It will run fine on a standard map. My mate has done it in his 1.4 106. It will obviously run better on a remap.

So I will lose low end torque but will gain torque through revs at the top end, like Hondas?

I like experimenting with my 1.4! It's different!

[kingy]

ive looked into this jim lad and its to expensive for me to do. you will get alot more power for your money if you just swop the engine. ive spoke to krisb and at the time he could put a gti engine in and everything that goes with it for £1200. then ill have 168 bhp. worth concidering and you get 6 gears. ftw.

[Foxy-jim]

Meh I'm not bothered by a '6 engine. More intersted in a 1.4 that could keep up with a '6!

[darrenjlobb]

Someones got the right idea,

NA would be cool, but probs stupidly expensive for gains...welding on a blower however.... Exhaust out front should be fairly easy to fit a turbo down below like they do on the 106 / saxo conversions etc?

A 200hp boosted 1.4 would be roughly 100 times more epic than a gti6 motor...

[cwspellowe]

FWIW, I know a guy that cammed his 106 quiksilver and made LESS power than standard. He didn't get it mapped and while it drove, it ran like a bag of crap. He retarded the timing to get it to run, hence the crap power.

You'd need some SERIOUS work to get the asthmatic 1.4 up to GTI6 worrying pace.

Would be epic, but £xK later I get the feeling you'd think "erm, why did I just do that?". Go for it if you have the disposable beer tokens but I really can't see the appeal.

Even if you wanted to stay TU, there's much better bases than the 1.4 8v

[Foxy-jim]

Ye that's what I would rather do! Have thought about turbo's etc but I am so tempted by the sound of ITB's. Would be epic! I may drop a vtr lump in though as that is an easy 25bhp increase on the 1.4 and it can use all ye same ancillaries as my engine now. Would just need uprated injectors as I already have the inlet.

[kingy]

Someones got the right idea,

NA would be cool, but probs stupidly expensive for gains...welding on a blower however.... Exhaust out front should be fairly easy to fit a turbo down below like they do on the 106 / saxo conversions etc?

A 200hp boosted 1.4 would be roughly 100 times more epic than a gti6 motor...

but less reliable.

[Dum-Dum]

Your car wont rev higher without a remap moving the rev limiter.

With fitting cams to an 8v car yes if you make more power top end you will lose out on low end torque.

Its to do with the amount of overlap (duration both valves are open) on the cam and generally the hotter the cam, the more overlap and the lower the torque.

[Foxy-jim]

FWIW, I know a guy that cammed his 106 quiksilver and made LESS power than standard. He didn't get it mapped and while it drove, it ran like a bag of crap. He retarded the timing to get it to run, hence the crap power.

You'd need some SERIOUS work to get the asthmatic 1.4 up to GTI6 worrying pace.

Would be epic, but £xK later I get the feeling you'd think "erm, why did I just do that?". Go for it if you have the disposable beer tokens but I really can't see the appeal.

Even if you wanted to stay TU, there's much better bases than the 1.4 8v

Did he go for a race or rallye cam? That may explain that! My mates 1.4 quicksilver was so quick after he cammed it! Spitting flames everywhere too!

I may rebuild a 1.6 8v as they are 98bhp as standard.

[Dum-Dum]

Oh and if were talking mods for your car, cant you stick on a VTS 16v head to the 1.4 block and then add bike bodies to that. Would probably only cost the same as a cam and a remap.

[Foxy-jim]

Your car wont rev higher without a remap moving the rev limiter.

With fitting cams to an 8v car yes if you make more power top end you will lose out on low end torque.

Its to do with the amount of overlap (duration both valves are open) on the cam and generally the hotter the cam, the more overlap and the lower the torque.

Ye obviously. I woulda need a full remap though. Again one of my friends knows a guy with the software to do this and raised his limiter to 9k! On a 1.4!

[Foxy-jim]

Oh and if were talking mods for your car, cant you stick on a VTS 16v head to the 1.4 block and then add bike bodies to that. Would probably only cost the same as a cam and a remap.

Oked into this a bit and I think the heads won't meet up internally and it would be a right pain with ye different sensors!

[Dum-Dum]

I thought the blocks were the same. easy way to check if theyll mate is go into a parts place and get a head gasket kit for each to compare.

[Foxy-jim]

Ye I will have a look. There is a website online that gives you the specs of all engines and you can compare to see of it is possible. Will look for that tomorrow. From what I remember the pistons on the 1.6 16v were bigger.

[Dum-Dum]

Ye I will have a look. There is a website online that gives you the specs of all engines and you can compare to see of it is possible. Will look for that tomorrow. From what I remember the pistons on the 1.6 16v were bigger.

Yep they are but if its got a flat face and the valves fit down the holes then its all good.

[Foxy-jim]

Ah right. I will get researching. Could be interesting!

Anyone know how much better a lightened camshaft pulley is over standard? I read that it lets the engine rev more freely?

[Ed Doe]

Jim, you will see NO gains at all whatsoever without a remap. You can get base maps or other peoples maps with similar specs, but to get the best gains out of any set up you have to have it mapped properly.

Yes there are things you can do to a 1.4. Swap the head, turbo it, supercharge it, but the amount of work and money it'll take to make it as quick as even a stock 6 just renders it a very unattractive prospect...

Bodies are the same story btw; you'll need that mapped for sure, and iirc you need to go stand-alone ecu for that, so start thinking wiring loom modifications... And at the end of it all, on 6 engines certainly, bodies only improve the air flow per cylinder very marginally over the stock inlet, as it was very well designed (peugeot, with an r&d fund, who'd have thunk it?!)


If you're looking for 6 worrying pace, the only half-sensible way to go is 16v head off a spaxo vts/106 gti, and then turbo it. But prepare to be raped for a lot of cash...

[Foxy-jim]

I have already looked into mapping etc. using a fast road can will give gains without a remap. You will get even more gains when you get it remapped.

If I dropped in a 1.6 8v engine, with cams, ITB's, a decent map and my 4-2-1 manifold and exhaust I could be pushing for 130bhp. It obviously isn't as much as a '6 but my car is also 200kgs lighter then a '6.

I understand what people are saying and yes i have looked at buying a '6/1.8 but I don't want to. It's something different that I will do over time to spread cost etc.

[Connor]

Why vtr and not a vts? Surely 16v will be better than 8... Or will your mani not fit that?

[Foxy-jim]

If I put a vts engine in I have to swap everything about the engine. If I use a vtr it is just a case of swapping the top ad bottom ends and using some vtr injectors.

[Niall]

Stick with what your doing! I can't stand it when people say "change the engine,it's the best way".
It's your car so do what you want to do and tell Connor to FYC.

Iirc when I was on the 106 forums, there wasn't actually a huge difference in power between the 8v and 16v and it was very easy to achieve 16v power with the 8v.
8v also seems to be a bit more of a solid engine as there was a lot of failed 16vs on the forum!

[Connor]

When did i say don't do it? All i asked was why the 8v instead of 16v as i dont really know the differences, so f*ck your couch, your neighbours couch and their neighbours couch

[Foxy-jim]

Ye my mates 106 gti keeps blowing up! 8v is better haha.

I just want something that will get noticed as my new orange wheels may not be enough! Haha.

[Dum-Dum]

Jim stick with the 1.4 mate. Rippthrough loves his.

It gets cheap tax, is good on fuel and a modded 1.4 will be cheaper to insure than a modded GTi6 (cos you wont leave a 6 standard either) even if you could happily go out and buy a GTi6 for less than your going to spend.


A throttle bodies conversion dosent require standalone management just to make it run. As long as you re-use the standard sensors and injectors Itll run quite happily and make more power. Its the same principal as fitting the 6 manifold and throttle body to a 1.8, the sensors are the same but it lets much more air in and makes more power.

Standalone management will give you better power but isnt always necessary. Also there is a company that makes mappable ECUs that plug straight into the saxo wiring plug for about £500 so you wouldnt even need a new loom.

[Midnightclub]

Jim personally if your going to carry on with the 8v TU's then boost has to be the way forward! The standalone ECU's which a lot of the saxo boys used were £500 fitted and mapped and they have the option of map sensors etc. to measure boost for not a lot more

[Ed Doe]

I have already looked into mapping etc. using a fast road can will give gains without a remap. You will get even more gains when you get it remapped.

If I dropped in a 1.6 8v engine, with cams, ITB's, a decent map and my 4-2-1 manifold and exhaust I could be pushing for 130bhp. It obviously isn't as much as a '6 but my car is also 200kgs lighter then a '6.

I understand what people are saying and yes i have looked at buying a '6/1.8 but I don't want to. It's something different that I will do over time to spread cost etc.

Im not saying don't do it, just that in my opinion it is an unwise avenue to explore, due to the extortionate cost of tuning an n/a engine (believe me, I've spent a LOT of time agonising over what path I want to go down with my '6; and n/a just makes it less driveable every day and costs a friggin FORTUNE!!!)

So roughtly costing your intended build out:

Cams: £300 + fitting & Timing (& excluding vernier pulley you'll need to set it up right)
ITBs: ~£1,500 (I'm assuming it'll be slightly less if you can get parts on the cheap etc. as it's £1900+ on spoox website incluing management! http://www.spoox.co.uk/catalog/product_i...26a614d0cd
4-2-1 manifold, £370; http://www.spoox.co.uk/catalog/product_i...26a614d0cd

Plus decent mapping: £4-500.

And that's ignoring the fact you wont have a base-map to run it up to your mapper on... and those mods will cause significant differences in breathing which will affect the afr. and after spending that money, you wont want to be running it lean all the way to the mappers....

You'd see far better gains for the money spent in turbo'ing Jim, there are quite a few of those kicking about; it's not the obvious choice in a 306 either so its not a mainstream choice, and you'll have more room to mount a turbo in the bay than in a spaxo/106 too

I think there's a 1.1 turbo 106 quiksilver if you wanted to work out what's involved.

Not sure what the upper boost limit is on the 1.4 TU engine before you need to go forged, but I'm sure you can run low-boost and get some pretty epic gains. Thinking about it, the 8v head may even work better in a turbo application too...


And DUM just NO.

1.8s shit themselves everytime you modify the inlet/exhaust on em without going standalone, because it cant regulate the fuel and runs rich and fucks em.

you CAN re-use the sensors, but again as I've already said, without adjusting the fuelling parameters to take into account the increase in air, you wont neccessarily get any more power, and you will long-term run rich/lean at different points in the rev range and will f*ck the engine.

[Foxy-jim]

I already have a 4-2-1 manifold on, and I would build the throtle bodies using r6 bike bodies. That should save a fair bit of money. I have a lot of friends who are pretty clued up with cars so labour will be cut down to a minimum.

I have definitely thought about turboing, but...it is the sound of throttle bodies that has just hooked me.

I do understand what you are all saying and I agree it is going to be a lot of money that I will be spending on a 1.4. But im not plannign on blowing £2,000 in a week this will be spread out over a year maybe a little longer as I want to do it all properly without cutting any corners at all!

[Rippthrough]

I get the feeling you'd think "erm, why did I just do that?".

Nah, I won't the work is most of the fun


And 8v TU's on 'bodies make a sound much nicer than the 16v versions, screw the extra ponies