Show me some dyno print outs

[Anton]

Typical...

[darrenjlobb]

td05 and low boost supercharger (before i fitted the win pulley, so very very laggy!)

Hate to point out on your own car, that was un-supercharged LOL.

Yeah your right, just thought about that myself! Well explains the chronic lag even more so then heh!

Have had so many bloody setups I forget which was when lol.

[ste91]

I bet 300TDi nozzles set up properly in the injectors would be a good choice tbf, it's just that the fuel is so uncontrollable on the mechanical setups that you can end up with chronic coal-age...

The thing with even the SDi and I'd even go to say the 300TDi nozzles is that even past 3500rpm or so, you've got such a short time period to get the fuel in, you will struggle with "small" nozzles... DI engines suffer so badly from this, which is why you see so many engines making ALL their power at around 3-3.5k because if you try and get the fuel in past there, the peak temperature and pressure has gone by the time you've finished injecting...

With "big" nozzles you may want to up the break pressure a little (note this will add to injection retard, so map will need to be adjusted to compensate) to get great atomization... With the correct tuning, you CAN make big nozzles work well, it's usually poor tuning that causes smoke and gutless-ness issues etc...

That makes perfect sense as to why the power curve on that dyno print out (the one I posted) is so flat at the top end of the revs - can't get the fuel in so can't make any more power.

I think it was you who explained it to me before how IDI's are able to rev higher and make power up the top of the revs because there is still heat and pressure in the pre combustion chamber.

I'm pretty sure it was a guy with a mech pumped L series that tried the 200 or 300 TDi injectors, so that may have been the reason why it didn't perform so well. - The problem with ECU's vs mech pumps is that anyone can go out with some hand tools and fiddle with their fuel pump whereas people who want to experiment with ECU controlled fuel pumps can't really do a lot without getting the map tweaked every time they change something and it could get rather expensive unless you know how to remap ECU's yourself. Obviously you already know this but this is one thing I think that halts progress for some people.

[darrenjlobb]

The one biggest plus point of any IDI engine, is the lack of precision you need to make good results.

You can literally just hurl fuel + air in, and the things will keep making power, they will get hot / stress the crap out of themselves, but they will make power, DI requires alot more precise timing / delivery to get power from, and to avoid smoke. However when you do get it right, there in another league imo.

[ste91]

And another league again for common rail injection I expect?

Don't get me wrong here I'm impressed with this 180bhp L series, it's a big step forward in progress as most are stuck with the standard turbo and we finally have some proven results from a bolt on hybrid turbo, I think you guys were stuck at a similar point with XUD's before, and then suddenly everyone's coming out with big turbos/etc...?

I'm keeping an eye on the MG/R forum from the guy who's running this 180bhp L series to see how it fares with long term reliability as all previous attempts at hybrid turbos just gave head lift/HGF issues and not really that much of a power gain, I think the highest was something like 170bhp but it didn't last very long. However that was basically a standard GT15 with a bigger comp wheel - bad recipe for EMP, whereas this hybrid uses a much bigger turbine housing.

Tuned XUD's seem to be pretty strong apart from the occasional thrown rod?

[Anton]

Occasional lol, its becoming more common when people are using bigger turbos. Some people have also been lifting the head and i've had HG issues. However people have been using ARP head studs which has cured that.

I don't get the whole thing about 'hybrid' turbos....

[Dum-Dum]

I think the fact its a semi ecu pump makes a huge difference to how you can make the power curve look.

This is a 306 HDi on a standard K03 with a FMIC and a remap with an 1800bar rail sensor. I know its Common Rail but its only 1st gen CR

   

Once. Allegedly. On rollers of inconsistent accuracy. He also hardly ever ran that tune as things would go bang very quickly, i've been informed he used to turn it down on trackdays etc. It was also on a 9mm which, lets be fair, would have been pushed to the absolute limit for that kind of fuel delivery. We could all make crazy power if we were happy to risk shit breaking. Just sayin'..

TD04's could probably make that kind of power if you had no mechanical sympathy. I know my '56 could efficiently flow 190bhp if I had the fuelling for it, and if I wanted to ignore lessons i've previously learned I could throw an 11mm and 30psi at it and see what happens, would be damned close to what JP made anyway.

Apparently the theoretical limit of the 9mm is actually about 230 or 250bhp (ive forgotten which) but people never get there because of compromised set ups and inefficiencies and the fact its just easier to 10/11mm

[ste91]

Occasional lol, its becoming more common when people are using bigger turbos. Some people have also been lifting the head and i've had HG issues. However people have been using ARP head studs which has cured that.

I don't get the whole thing about 'hybrid' turbos....

I think that's what some tried to do with the L series; ARP studs, but that idea seemed to be put to bed.

Hybrid turbo is just a turbo that's been made up of two different turbos, the only reason we tried hybrids on the L series because there we no direct bolt on turbos which meant the expense of custom downpipes and adapter plates which nobody wants to spend time or money on - so they tried to use the existing turbo and just upgrade the compressor wheel but as mentioned it wasn't very successful.
Now this other hybrid (the one used for this dyno graph I posted) someone had managed to find a turbo with the same exhaust manifold flange however the rest of the turbo wasn't ideal - so they took the turbine housing and mated it to a GT1752 so it's essentially some unknown turbine housing and GT1752 internals and compressor wheel housing - the guy wont reveal what the turbine housing is off (yet) because he was planning on making about 5 of these turbos and selling for profit.

It seems fairly easy to mate a TD04 to an XUD, aside from the actuator hence some people welding the wastegate shut, we don't have that luxury, which is a shame as TD04's are mega cheap!

[darrenjlobb]

And another league again for common rail injection I expect?

Don't get me wrong here I'm impressed with this 180bhp L series, it's a big step forward in progress as most are stuck with the standard turbo and we finally have some proven results from a bolt on hybrid turbo, I think you guys were stuck at a similar point with XUD's before, and then suddenly everyone's coming out with big turbos/etc...?

I'm keeping an eye on the MG/R forum from the guy who's running this 180bhp L series to see how it fares with long term reliability as all previous attempts at hybrid turbos just gave head lift/HGF issues and not really that much of a power gain, I think the highest was something like 170bhp but it didn't last very long. However that was basically a standard GT15 with a bigger comp wheel - bad recipe for EMP, whereas this hybrid uses a much bigger turbine housing.

Tuned XUD's seem to be pretty strong apart from the occasional thrown rod?

Yeah, common rail gives you all the benifits of DI, and the added benifit of such extreme injection pressure, and such PRECISE timing of injection, the control you have over common rail is just insane compared to mech injection, hence much cleaner results can be had, and alot more power can be made...

Hybrid turbos are good in theory, but personally id rather find a turbo from another suitable vehicle (bigger diesel) and make the complete unit fit, for many reasons, one, because its cheaper, two because if it pops, you can just get another off the shelf the same, and 3 because I just dont like hybrids in general!

The only real issues with the XUD when your tuning them to around 200hp are conrods and head studs, both of which can be resolved, but will cost you. That said, sometimes rods seem to be fine at higher power, just depends on the state of tune / luck at the best of times tbh.... Ive never seen in the bottom end of one of those L series motors, what are the rods in them like?

[ste91]

And another league again for common rail injection I expect?

Don't get me wrong here I'm impressed with this 180bhp L series, it's a big step forward in progress as most are stuck with the standard turbo and we finally have some proven results from a bolt on hybrid turbo, I think you guys were stuck at a similar point with XUD's before, and then suddenly everyone's coming out with big turbos/etc...?

I'm keeping an eye on the MG/R forum from the guy who's running this 180bhp L series to see how it fares with long term reliability as all previous attempts at hybrid turbos just gave head lift/HGF issues and not really that much of a power gain, I think the highest was something like 170bhp but it didn't last very long. However that was basically a standard GT15 with a bigger comp wheel - bad recipe for EMP, whereas this hybrid uses a much bigger turbine housing.

Tuned XUD's seem to be pretty strong apart from the occasional thrown rod?

Yeah, common rail gives you all the benifits of DI, and the added benifit of such extreme injection pressure, and such PRECISE timing of injection, the control you have over common rail is just insane compared to mech injection, hence much cleaner results can be had, and alot more power can be made...

Hybrid turbos are good in theory, but personally id rather find a turbo from another suitable vehicle (bigger diesel) and make the complete unit fit, for many reasons, one, because its cheaper, two because if it pops, you can just get another off the shelf the same, and 3 because I just dont like hybrids in general!

The only real issues with the XUD when your tuning them to around 200hp are conrods and head studs, both of which can be resolved, but will cost you. That said, sometimes rods seem to be fine at higher power, just depends on the state of tune / luck at the best of times tbh.... Ive never seen in the bottom end of one of those L series motors, what are the rods in them like?

Well I would like to try something like a GT2052/56 on an L series, and if I don't manage to get hold of one of these hybrids then that's what I'll be trying - I think it'll be more suited than a TD04 and still make "enough" power for me at the top end. I agree totally with what you're saying about off the shelf turbos, which is why I'm such a fan of TD04's, there are a few people in the process of fitting them to the L series but progress is slow.

As far as I know, the rods are pretty strong, these engines are known for being able to take a lot of abuse, I don't know of any ones that have suffered real mechanical failure other than ones that have been driven through water and ended up with bent rods.
My last L series survived a run away!

There has been the odd HGF on high mileage engines and of course head lift but that's self inflicted.

[karl1989]

T2
Bosch with ground LDA and gov
HDI box
18-20 psi

121.8hp
191 lbs/ft



Need to do another now I have the T25 and another pump on

[Mattcheese31]

K14 with a Bosch and the things it says under my sig lol . .