Which Engine (kinda new car thread but not :P )

[Toms306]

Ok, which would you choose, Mondeo or Vectra engines around 04/54 plate, but based on engine alone so forget looks and toys.

Gotta be an all rounder so mpg/tax/economy/reliability all important. Completely standard to keep insurance low and not tempt fate with reliability.

Choices -

2.0 TDCI 130 - less powerful, but should still do 50mpg avg, £170 a year to tax same as the others - higher milage 'can' have DMF/DPF and injector issues - but that'll be the same with any newer diesel.

2.2 TDCi 155 - Not driven one of these but appartenly much more torquey, same to tax, possibly a little less mpg but are they any more reliable (would I save more buying a reliable car than a more eco one in other words?).

1.9 CDTi 150 - Can have swirl flap issues and EGR issues, near enough same power and weight as the 155 but cheaper to buy, much higher mpg claimed from these, seems a better all rounder?

Don't need spam about the cars themselves or me or my shit HDi or anything else - just engine choices from the list please.

Cheers

[1616six]

I know it'll seem biased Tom but I do love my CDTI 150.

One of my colleagues has a Mondeo TDCI 130 and has always had no more than 40mpg, he's always been shocked how I get 52/53 constant. His mondeo is constantly in the garage for various things too.

Mondeos are very very common. I know you see a fair few vectras but there's something about them for me. I love mine.

My tax is £170 a year, MPG is in the 50's, get a £150 DT UK box and they'll be sitting near 200BHP.

Look at it this way, ALL modern diesels suffer from EGR issues. The first thing I did was fit an EGR restrictor plate from eBay for £3.

We've all heard of the diesel injector problems on the modern engines too, I spend near the same time I do on here as I do on vec-c now & I've never seen a thread of a CDTI 150 with injector issues, on the flip side i've heard a lot through just when I was going to buy mine, about mondeos with them as I also considered an ST TDCI.

I'd love a Mondeo ST TDCI but there's just more appeal about the CDTI 150 as it really is a bit of a sleeper with a few tweaks, they can be picked up for peanuts if you don't mind higher miles & there's loads that can be done to them.


The thing you need to take into consideration is what ever car you buy that has 130+ BHP, wont be THE most economical car in the world. If you want a genuinely economical car then I'd seriously consider looking at a Corsa 1.3 CDTI or similar, I know you want more space but they are the truly economical ones. My 150 reads 52-53 avg MPG constantly but the way I drive it I probably see less than that usually.


Finally for me is that there will be an influx of people saying "Oh they're all rubbish, we had loads at work as reps cars and they constantly broke & handle like shite"

1. The car you'll be getting IIRC will be under £3000? So it's gonna be what 8yrs old roughly? Any niggly problems will be fixed, you'll soon see on viewing it if the swirl bar is off, if the EGR is knackered there'll be dash lights or rough pulling away etc.

2. Handling - I've heard a lot of mixed opinions about both cars when it comes to handling. I've only ever driven a basic LX TDCI mondeo that I thought was pretty boat like and nothing special to drive.

I don't know what a standard Vec is like but my SRI has the 'sports' suspension from factory which is 15mm lower and has stiffer shocks. I think its epic to drive. No body roll what so ever, it sticks to the road, I've got mine on 19" snowflakes with 35 profile tyres which I must admit does make a nice difference.

To summarise,

I'd test drive both, also have a look at Astra 1.7 CDTI's (100bhp) as i've heard good about them too for the reliability factors. I did choose the Vectra over the Mondeo as to me it's aesthetically more pleasing & you can get an awful lot more choice and spec for your money.

Good luck!

[4WayDiablo]

Well, that answered that! Lol

[Dum-Dum]

2.2 mondeo mate, vectras are like gingers, they have no souls. Also vectras handle worse, break down more and IIRC at that age ford were using PSA diesels which are still widely regarded as the best you can get.

[Dicky]

IIRC the earlier 1.9 CDTI SRi 150 had swirl flap problems

[C.A.R.]

Mondeo certainly appeals more to me.

Tom, why do you need a saloon? Serious question, as I'd have thought a hatchback would suit you better? And be much more practical. Unless you were after an estate?

If you're wanting an Estate then that would make more sense.

The 2.2 Mondeo is rarer than the 130, which are significantly cheaper than an equivalent CDTi 120 Vectra. You can get a sub-100k TDCi130 Mondeo for less than a grand.

The ST Mondeo TDCi is above your budget, but you could get a 2.2 Zetec or Ghia (if you can find one)

My old man had a CDTi150 engine in the Astra H Sporthatch, which was a nice car. It had a very harsh ride though, and it felt very 'crashy' with vague steering, but it did go well. The powerband on the standard map was very narrow though, if you wanted to make progress you really had to stir the 6-speed box, which can present another weak point on these. The EGR failed on the car at 7 months old (from new) and that was replaced under warranty. I'd suggest that any car you get will have EGR issues at some point.

Handling-wise, nobody buys a barge like a Vectra or Mondeo for their handling characteristics, but the Mondeo is supposedly better.

Another consideration for you might be the rare-but-often-very-well-equipped Vauxhall Signum?

[1616six]

Signums are fantastic, I wanted one but the DPF put me off.

Remember, Astras, Estate Vectras, Auto vectras and Signums have DPF's

Manual hatchbacks dont.

[C.A.R.]

Fecking DPFs, limiting choice once again!

I want a 407 next (growing family... ) but they are fraught with problems too. How comes you see so many of them being used as taxis though? They can't be that bad?

[Tom]

Its cos hes old.

Tom buy a hatchback, bitches love hatchbacks.

[Piggy]

Mondeo ftw.
Have friends who have had a few, he currently runs a 04 2.0 130bhp...gets 54mpg average.

also have a ST mondeo 2.2...they get just shy of 50mpg and not afraid to use the boost pedal.

the 2.2s can be chipped to 180/200 for pennies and still see great returns.

Mondeo doesnt look like you have resigned yourself to being an old retired grandad either.
Mondeo handles so much better too...vectra top specs handle but they handle your spine like its made of titanium

[Dum-Dum]

Imo tom if you get a mondeo dont go for the st, you'll be forever moaning about the sportyness of it. Get the ghia, ghia x, titanium or titanium x as they are the best spec and often cheaper than the st.

Dont worry about the dpf and dmf too much as any car of that era will have them fitted and they will cause issues. Swirl flaps do come off, Peugeot ones are never an issue cos pug made them so big they couldn't get sucked into the engine.

[Ed Doe]

Ok, which would you choose, Mondeo or Vectra engines around 04/54 plate, but based on engine alone so forget looks and toys.

Don't need spam about the cars themselves or me or my shit HDi or anything else - just engine choices from the list please.

Guys keep it on topic please, there's a lot of crap in here about the cars themselves. Tom let me know if you want this cleaned back up.

[Mattcheese31]

buy a plastic pig . . . . . .that's perfect for your kinda style . . . .

[puglove]

Id take a ford engine over the vauxhall any day.


The engine is the only thing in ford that have remained good over the years. Its jyst the rest of the car thats tje issue lol

Vaxhall is just shite through and through mate

[Niall]

Yep definitely ford. Not the most refined things but considering they are part psa designed, they are fairly reliable! But then again I bet you will never agree the psa build some of the most reliable Diesel engines in the world?

[ozonehostile]

I'd say Ford too, driven numerous vauxhall diesels and they are all flatter than a witches tit but do seen to return better mpg, however ford is a much better all rounder in my opinion

[Tom]

Arent the fords chain driven aswell? Or is it the vauxhalls that are chain? Shit, i cant remember

[C.A.R.]

Aren't the Vauxhall lumps from Fiat?

[Niall]

Aren't the Vauxhall lumps from Fiat?

Nope they are just the usual GM dervs that seem to get worse and worse as they build new ones.

[C.A.R.]

Aren't the Vauxhall lumps from Fiat?

Nope they are just the usual GM dervs that seem to get worse and worse as they build new ones.

I was so sure of mysef that I googled it again before replying

It is a Fiat engine, same one as in the JTD-badged Alfa's...

[Stephen]

I have a 130tdci 02 Mondeo.
It's actually a great car/engine. Feels quick and the mpgzzz are good if your not on boost the entire time.

Mines on 180k and still runs really well. And yeah they're chain driven.

Will probably be for sale in 3-4 months for sub 700

[DaveW]

Harsh ride on the astra and vectra is from the huge wheels they like to fit with rubber band tyres, on the cdti 150's.

[Toms306]

I know it'll seem biased Tom but I do love my CDTI 150.

One of my colleagues has a Mondeo TDCI 130 and has always had no more than 40mpg, he's always been shocked how I get 52/53 constant. His mondeo is constantly in the garage for various things too.

Mondeos are very very common. I know you see a fair few vectras but there's something about them for me. I love mine.

My tax is £170 a year, MPG is in the 50's, get a £150 DT UK box and they'll be sitting near 200BHP.

Look at it this way, ALL modern diesels suffer from EGR issues. The first thing I did was fit an EGR restrictor plate from eBay for £3.

We've all heard of the diesel injector problems on the modern engines too, I spend near the same time I do on here as I do on vec-c now & I've never seen a thread of a CDTI 150 with injector issues, on the flip side i've heard a lot through just when I was going to buy mine, about mondeos with them as I also considered an ST TDCI.

I'd love a Mondeo ST TDCI but there's just more appeal about the CDTI 150 as it really is a bit of a sleeper with a few tweaks, they can be picked up for peanuts if you don't mind higher miles & there's loads that can be done to them.


The thing you need to take into consideration is what ever car you buy that has 130+ BHP, wont be THE most economical car in the world. If you want a genuinely economical car then I'd seriously consider looking at a Corsa 1.3 CDTI or similar, I know you want more space but they are the truly economical ones. My 150 reads 52-53 avg MPG constantly but the way I drive it I probably see less than that usually.


Finally for me is that there will be an influx of people saying "Oh they're all rubbish, we had loads at work as reps cars and they constantly broke & handle like shite"

1. The car you'll be getting IIRC will be under £3000? So it's gonna be what 8yrs old roughly? Any niggly problems will be fixed, you'll soon see on viewing it if the swirl bar is off, if the EGR is knackered there'll be dash lights or rough pulling away etc.

2. Handling - I've heard a lot of mixed opinions about both cars when it comes to handling. I've only ever driven a basic LX TDCI mondeo that I thought was pretty boat like and nothing special to drive.

I don't know what a standard Vec is like but my SRI has the 'sports' suspension from factory which is 15mm lower and has stiffer shocks. I think its epic to drive. No body roll what so ever, it sticks to the road, I've got mine on 19" snowflakes with 35 profile tyres which I must admit does make a nice difference.

To summarise,

I'd test drive both, also have a look at Astra 1.7 CDTI's (100bhp) as i've heard good about them too for the reliability factors. I did choose the Vectra over the Mondeo as to me it's aesthetically more pleasing & you can get an awful lot more choice and spec for your money.

Good luck!

Wow, cheers Jordan!

Looks like you deffo done plenty of research before buying yours!

I know nothing thats slightly 'fun' or 'fast' will be that economical, but the priority here is space really,something corsa sized wouldn't be anywhere near big enough currently.

The astra would probably be alright sizewise (although I've not checked how much rear space there is as old people make a right hassle getting in cars, even the 306 doesnt really have enough space). However to get the 150 diesel in the astra you've gotta pay more than the veccy and they're pretty rare from what I can see. I've gone for mondeo or vectra because both are common as so should be easy enough to find locally.

Also you say about the tuning box but I want something thats quick enough for me to start with so i won't do mods (no doubt I'll end up doing a few, like f*cking the EGR off for a start lol, but really nothing major for a while). So Im kinda thinking the 130 Mondeo may not be quick enough and will get boring quickly. But both the 150 Vec and 155 Mondeo have better 0-60 times...so I hope it works out that the 30-70 (which lets face it, we all do more of most days) is also better.

Mondeo certainly appeals more to me.

Tom, why do you need a saloon? Serious question, as I'd have thought a hatchback would suit you better? And be much more practical. Unless you were after an estate?

If you're wanting an Estate then that would make more sense.

The 2.2 Mondeo is rarer than the 130, which are significantly cheaper than an equivalent CDTi 120 Vectra. You can get a sub-100k TDCi130 Mondeo for less than a grand.

The ST Mondeo TDCi is above your budget, but you could get a 2.2 Zetec or Ghia (if you can find one)

My old man had a CDTi150 engine in the Astra H Sporthatch, which was a nice car. It had a very harsh ride though, and it felt very 'crashy' with vague steering, but it did go well. The powerband on the standard map was very narrow though, if you wanted to make progress you really had to stir the 6-speed box, which can present another weak point on these. The EGR failed on the car at 7 months old (from new) and that was replaced under warranty. I'd suggest that any car you get will have EGR issues at some point.

Handling-wise, nobody buys a barge like a Vectra or Mondeo for their handling characteristics, but the Mondeo is supposedly better.

Another consideration for you might be the rare-but-often-very-well-equipped Vauxhall Signum?

I'm still going for a 5 door hatch Chris, a salloon would be no use to me with a small boot for access. Basically I need space for two things - people (mainly my Nans who find it difficult to get in or out of cars at the best of times so the more space the better) and also 'stuff', I carry a lot of stuff around to various places, to and from nans/the dump/Dads and 'if' I move out I'll need enough space for that. So a large boot/loadspace is also necessary, along with easy access.

The space in an estate would be ideal at times, however I can't justify the extra size and weight (loss of mpg) of an estate again tbh, plus if I go for the Vec, the hatch doesnt have a DPF as Jordan says. A mondeo hatch is big and easy to fit stuff in, vectra boot looks a little smaller but I've never tried fitting nything in one so may just be a decieving shape.

I'm not going for a cheap as chips 'under a grand' car again - as it simply doesn't pay off and with my Nan offering me a few grand for a 'better' car I'd be daft not to take it - I put it off last time and look what I ended up with lol. Anyway, long story, short is that Nan doesn't understand anxiety/OCD etc and doesn't want me to move out (as apparently I'll hate living with no-one else....umm, yeah the complete opposite of reality but she's not one to change her mind lol) so she doesn't want to offer me money for that. However she's willing to give me £3-4kish for a decent car (no, I dont understand the logic there either) but Mum said I should take that money and buy a new car, then use the £4k that I'd saved for a car to move out instead. So budget is £3-4k ish, hence not looking for a pov spec LX with a million miles on it.

As you say the handling isn't great, as much as I moan about the HDi, it does hold the road better than anything else I've driven. However aslong as I can still corner at a decent speed without falling off the road I'm not too fussed, comfort is more my thing at my old age now haha, and I must admit both the Mondeo Ghia and the Elite Vectra are real comfy. Not so sure about the sportier models though.

I'm not a fan of the signum tbh, plus being a lot rarer won't be easy to find one locally.

Fecking DPFs, limiting choice once again!

Tbh, we're getting to a point where you have very little choice about DPFs and DMFs now, there isn't a newer diesel (afaik) that comes without either. One of the reasons for getting the mk4 is that the 1.9PD MK4s don't have DPFs....howver the DMF failed (near enough) instead. So really i'm gonna ignore the horror stries about those and just hope they dont fail on whatever I get lol. I will try to find something that has history of atleast one being replaced if possible.

Mondeo ftw.
Have friends who have had a few, he currently runs a 04 2.0 130bhp...gets 54mpg average.

also have a ST mondeo 2.2...they get just shy of 50mpg and not afraid to use the boost pedal.

the 2.2s can be chipped to 180/200 for pennies and still see great returns.

Mondeo doesnt look like you have resigned yourself to being an old retired grandad either.
Mondeo handles so much better too...vectra top specs handle but they handle your spine like its made of titanium

Hmm, I hear a lot about 'my friends got this and it's crap...' lol, but tbh its mostly how and where you drive that affects mpg. For example I never got less than 35mpg from my 1.8, yet SRowell never got above 25mpg iirc lol!

If the Vec really is that uncomfortable maybe its not such a good idea - see this is the kinda thing you cant really determine on a 10 minute test drive in town with the dealer next to you lol.

If I'm honest I'm not a huge fan of the looks of either car tbh, however the higher spec models do look better, ST and SRi imo look ok for what they are. And i dont mind looking like an old Grandad haha.

Imo tom if you get a mondeo dont go for the st, you'll be forever moaning about the sportyness of it. Get the ghia, ghia x, titanium or titanium x as they are the best spec and often cheaper than the st.

Dont worry about the dpf and dmf too much as any car of that era will have them fitted and they will cause issues. Swirl flaps do come off, Peugeot ones are never an issue cos pug made them so big they couldn't get sucked into the engine.

Titanium is the spec I like the look of tbh (didnt check Ghia, but my Dads Ghia X seems less specced than a titanium), stuff like auto wipers and lights even! Comes with cheap seats afaik though, and the mondeo does look a bit cheaper inside, I hate that big plasticy armrest they have for a start, not sure whether it is lower quality or not though, might just look a little worse.

I'm not sure the flaps getting sucked into the engine is the main issue on those (although it is on beemers iirc), its more to do with getting stuck (cause of the damn egr shite...when will manufacturers learn EGR soot does more harm in the long run) and then because they're stuck you lose power (either bottom end if they're open, ortop end if theyre closed) and puts into limp mode which is not ideal.

Ok, which would you choose, Mondeo or Vectra engines around 04/54 plate, but based on engine alone so forget looks and toys.

Don't need spam about the cars themselves or me or my shit HDi or anything else - just engine choices from the list please.

Guys keep it on topic please, there's a lot of crap in here about the cars themselves. Tom let me know if you want this cleaned back up.

Thanks Ed but it's OK, atleast its relevant stuff rather than what I was expecting lol...

Yep definitely ford. Not the most refined things but considering they are part psa designed, they are fairly reliable! But then again I bet you will never agree the psa build some of the most reliable Diesel engines in the world?

Wait, so you're saying get the Ford because it's like a Peugeot? Thats not the most persuasive argument here haha.

No I realise 'some' PSA diesels are good, I don't dispute that XUDs were awesome in thier time - however the 2.0 90 HDi and the 1.6 in the 307s, don't seem so good lol.

---

Aren't the Vauxhall lumps from Fiat?

Nope they are just the usual GM dervs that seem to get worse and worse as they build new ones.

I was so sure of mysef that I googled it again before replying

It is a Fiat engine, same one as in the JTD-badged Alfa's...

Yup, it is indeed a Fiat lump, as you've now researched anyway lol.

I have a 130tdci 02 Mondeo.
It's actually a great car/engine. Feels quick and the mpgzzz are good if your not on boost the entire time.

Mines on 180k and still runs really well. And yeah they're chain driven.

Will probably be for sale in 3-4 months for sub 700

Yeah its those that are chain driven (and I guess the 155 is too?) but Im pretty sure Vectras are belt.

I didn't find them particularly quick, probably about the same as my HDi tbh, but I guess it depends what you're comparing it to.

3-4 months? The HDi will be lucky to last 2 weeks....having some pretty big issues with it atm. And currently I still have use of Nans front garden (whilst clearing her house out) until March 1st - so if I'm gonna break the HDi (which is the only option now really) it's gotta be done reasonably quickly. (Within 22 days! )

Plus as I said above I'm not really looking for another cheap old car but thanks for the offer.

[procta]

tom what happend to the Avensis ?

[Ed Doe]

What's wrong with the Hdi. Price delivered to my door?
















But seriously, price complete?

[Toms306]

tom what happend to the Avensis ?

It got sold about a month after I bought it lol....

What's wrong with the Hdi. Price delivered to my door?
















But seriously, price complete?

Ok, deep breath

MOT and tax are up at the end of March (expensive tax due to year)

MOT fails -

Wheel bearing
Exhasut snapped just after cat
Rusty hole in NSR arch
OSR seatbelt won't retract
Airbag light (intermittent, despite 'fixing' seat wires)
Possible beam camber (scrubs with a load in, but cant tell how far the beams gone yet tbh)
Handbrake doesn't hold well - although I think its still above the 16% requirement - has new cables but I think one of the calipers is 'dodgy'.
Number plate light only works if you whack the tailgate - I think its the tailgate loom broken

Other issues/annoyances -

Turbo sounds like a police car
Clutch slipping a lot now, juddery when pullingaway and release bearing whines, and the bite point moves as the cable is knackered
Blower motor barely works due to a wiring fault
Most of the dash is broken/loose wiring/missing fixings - from a very poor heater matrix change I guess
Aux belt squeals (new belt and tensioner, possibly a bad pulley)
No cambelt history and on 121k
Hunts constantly at idle
Jumps throughout the rev range (possibly a sensor but I'd guess injector fault)
Tracking is about a mile out
Steering ram has no cover and as such is now scratched up, possibly cause no issues though
No rear exhaust heatshield - but thats irrelevant as theres no exhaust gas there now anyway lol
Oil leak from turbo retun line
Water 'disappears' but cant find a leak, unless the gaskets going but thats unlikely on a HDi afaik


So really you can see it's not worth anything but scrap. So I'll take my bits off it and sell any 'good' parts (that wont take long lol) but also saves me putting it back to standard if I just break it.

Wouldn't take less than £550 for it (standard) due to how much it owes me (lost more on this than a £2400 Golf so far lol).

[swampy]

i had a 115bhp tdci mondeo and never once got above 50mpg in three years of ownership!
most of the time it was closer to 40mpg even on mainly motorway runs!!

cant see the 130 or 155 being any better.

i did look at the mondeo st tdci when i was in the market for a new car but at the time all the ones available were either rough as (especially the alloys take a battering) or very high milage.

i ended up on a wim test driving an alfa 156 2.5 jtd 175bhp
in fact that swayed me so much in test drove two more and then went back to buy the 1st one!

havent looked back, average 45mpg i would say over myn ownership, and returns 55mpg on a run at just over the limit
and thats four up with baggae

[Poodle]

Drove a signum earlier, nice place to be and decent engine, but feels dead to drive.

What's your budget? Could you squeeze your way to one of the newer 2.0 136bhp engines in the 2007 onwards Mondeos? Have driven one of those, great engine to thrash, plus my mate regularly returns 50+mpg.

[Toms306]

i had a 115bhp tdci mondeo and never once got above 50mpg in three years of ownership!
most of the time it was closer to 40mpg even on mainly motorway runs!!

cant see the 130 or 155 being any better.

i did look at the mondeo st tdci when i was in the market for a new car but at the time all the ones available were either rough as (especially the alloys take a battering) or very high milage.

i ended up on a wim test driving an alfa 156 2.5 jtd 175bhp
in fact that swayed me so much in test drove two more and then went back to buy the 1st one!

havent looked back, average 45mpg i would say over myn ownership, and returns 55mpg on a run at just over the limit
and thats four up with baggae

I'm aiming for a little more reliability, I think buying an Alfa would just be tempting fate haha.

With the mondeo, you've gotta bear in mind it's weight, 115bhp must really struggle to pull it so you end up booting it all the time to get anywhere, which wastes more fuel than a quick boot now and then in a more powerful car. My Dad had a 1.8 petrol Mondeo, which he changed for a 2.5.........he gets the same mpg because the 2.5 isn't struggling all the time (and yes if I could afford the 2.5 V6 I would...for the epic noise alone lol!).

Drove a signum earlier, nice place to be and decent engine, but feels dead to drive.

What's your budget? Could you squeeze your way to one of the newer 2.0 136bhp engines in the 2007 onwards Mondeos? Have driven one of those, great engine to thrash, plus my mate regularly returns 50+mpg.

Not too worried about feeling 'involved', its ok for a day or two of thrashing, then gets dull with lots of noise and feeling everything and not comfortable - yes Im old lol.

Budget is about £3-4k, not sure exactly yet, will also depend how much I can get back from the HDi tbh.

[swampy]

Nope you didn't have to boot the Mondeo at all, would pull away nicely with minimal effort.