Pre-Project: You crazy mo'fo..

[ginge191]

So a few of you may know i'm going to start building a new engine soon.

This thread is to manily take the pressure off Ruan's PM box, and a great help he has been.

Basically, im trying to gauge all of this before i go ahead buying engine lumps, investing in forged parts and so on, so please leave the spam to one side.

The mechanical side of this build isn't too much of an issue, ofcourse, i'll need some help when it comes to it but im finding the ECU the biggest obstacle at the moment.

Few questions regarding the ECU - it will be reading from a GTI6 head and more than likely run a standalone ECU, as apoosed to a piggy back computer module.
As for building a standalone, where on earth to start; there's a company called Avitec who specialise solely in ECU mapping, selling and refurbing but say nothing about building from scratch. Also, very lucky, there are only 3 stores in the UK, one on the island - winning! Would it be worth enquiring BEFORE having an engine built? or would they need to have a guide on A/F, fuel rates and so on?

[Stephen]

So what are you building? What engine?

[Niall]

Gti6 ecu won't be any good I don't think. I think your changing too many parameters but I'm too drunk right now to think about it properly.
Mega squirt are a good budget option if you build it your self

[Ed Doe]

but I'm too drunk right now to think about it properly.

+1!!!

[4WayDiablo]

Megaaquirt and emerald iirc, emerald do mapping to I think

[ginge191]

But they're big brands and have distance to consider..
I'd need to transport a few times to get correct an precise mapping.

And the engine in simplicity is a gti turbo - technically a 1.8 GTI-T...

[ginge191]

sorry, only just woke up properly and read neil's psot - "a gti ECU wont work"


Also, i've emailed a compant called AVILEC, seem to be decent with ECU's and local to me, which means i won't need to bother travelling HUGE distances when i need a map

[Niall]

So are you using a mi16 head on a 1.8 bottom end? If so, it might run on a gti6 ECU but will run like utter dog shit. Might be able to nurse it to somewhere to get it mapped.

[mark_airey]

So are you using a mi16 head on a 1.8 bottom end? If so, it might run on a gti6 ECU but will run like utter dog shit. Might be able to nurse it to somewhere to get it mapped.

but its going to have a turbo fitted so I think a stock GTi ECU would throw a shitfit if he tried to use that TBH, it would be fine right up to the point where the turbo starts spooling and then it would have no idea what to do

But then I don't do engine electrics so I might be totally wrong!

[ginge191]

No, that much is true mark - a standard ECU would be utter poo - running a standalone only runs alongside the standard ECU.
It's finding how to get it, where to put it and what wires go where

And no neil, it's a GTI head and a 1.8 bottom; the mi16 would be no better than a GTI head, it's the rest of the Mi block with its ally spec. which differs. unless, you get the smaller engine... then thats a new ball game.

I'm emailing to see how they would go about it, and what they would need - would they need a car running, would they need the stock ECU, i dont know...

[Niall]

Tbh for the cost of a piggyback ECU like your suggesting, it wouldn't cost much more to go completely standalone and then the worlds your oyster in terms of engine mods

I reckon it still might drive with the boost as low as possible but as said, it would be utter crap but if it means you can get there, it might be an idea.
My engine is sold Ginge otherwise I would offer it to you but then again, if your boosting it, it might be worth getting a second hand one and rebuilding the bottom end anyway. I know I did mine but the bores weren't in brilliant condition because of the way the engine had been treated previously.

[ginge191]

Tbh for the cost of a piggyback ECU like your suggesting, it wouldn't cost much more to go completely standalone and then the worlds your oyster in terms of engine mods

I reckon it still might drive with the boost as low as possible but as said, it would be utter crap but if it means you can get there, it might be an idea.
My engine is sold Ginge otherwise I would offer it to you but then again, if your boosting it, it might be worth getting a second hand one and rebuilding the bottom end anyway. I know I did mine but the bores weren't in brilliant condition because of the way the engine had been treated previously.

Piggyback ECU's are ok on N/A engines, which is what is recommended for TB's etc. whereas boosted engines tend to need a standalone for extra calibration. All the piggy back does is trick the standard ECU essnetially - tricking with increased air anf fuel imo wouldnt be the most reliable of controllers.

As for your engine, thats why i was asking the condition of it - i'm rebuilding it anyway, well, keeping the cylinders and liners? standard if i can help it..

[Niall]

If your running low boost you should get away with standard internals and a decomp plate according to Ruan.

[ginge191]

If your running low boost you should get away with standard internals and a decomp plate according to Ruan.

I don't think i'd want to decomp plate it, i'd rather forge pistons for a sure fail safe - i think a decomp plate seems a cheap way out :think:

[Niall]

Yeah forged Is the way if you can afford it. Good luck finding forged pistons that fit! Might have to have them made.

[ginge191]

Yeah forged Is the way if you can afford it. Good luck finding forged pistons that fit! Might have to have them made.

Hmm... may be handy refurbing standard pistons, rings etc.. and then decomp to just get it on the move :think:

hmmmmmm

[Niall]

Yeah forged Is the way if you can afford it. Good luck finding forged pistons that fit! Might have to have them made.

Hmm... may be handy refurbing standard pistons, rings etc.. and then decomp to just get it on the move :think:

hmmmmmm

New rings, piston service, new head gasket and bolts and big end bearings cost me 200 quid but that was mates rates. I would expect to pay 250ish. This are quite expensive

[ginge191]

thats not a bad price to be fair!!

i'll look into it

[ginge191]

New question - where can i source forged 1.8 pistos and rods - it seems as though the dealers are only producing parts for 2L gti engines.. :think:

[4WayDiablo]

New question - where can i source forged 1.8 pistos and rods - it seems as though the dealers are only producing parts for 2L gti engines.. :think:

Custom made I reckon
Ask where Darren got is made and see if they can do a deal for a set of 1.8 rods or do the same at other founderies

[ginge191]

Well i looked on pug1off and they seem to be charging ~£900 for a set of GTI pistons... slightly OTT, and spoox charging near £500.

But if i was to use GTI pistons, i'd need matching rods, and a bored 1.8 which would prove pointless, and effort costly

[samass]

yep, probably gunna have to be one off... that might be expensive! if it'll help with cost at all, i might be able to model a piston and con rod in CAD for you to give to foundries...

[ginge191]

yep, probably gunna have to be one off... that might be expensive! if it'll help with cost at all, i might be able to model a piston and con rod in CAD for you to give to foundries...

That would be massively helpful! I'll grab a 1.8 piston and rod as and when i get the engine if it helps?

I've got a guy who "owns" an engineering rig here, who's done a bit of work for me already - perhaps he could find contacts/ways :think:

interesting build this is turning out to be.

[samass]

yep deffo. ill have to use them to measure up to make a model of them. ill give it a good go, my CAD skills aren't the best, but i'd say i'm fairly competent.
definitely worth an ask, at the very least he'll be able to point you in the direction of local/good firms, and maybe able to help with mate's rates

[ginge191]

awesome, cheers mate!

i'll keep searching tinternet see what comes along

[samass]

no worries, let me know when you get the piston and 'rod

[Grant]

I swear lynx or similar sell a 'plug and play' supercharger system. All of the sensors are pre-charge so they don't throw a shit fit.
Ed was trying to explain it to me at the weekend lol.
Worth considering perhaps...

[4WayDiablo]

Superchargers are the norm for the 6 lot and so on I think ginge is after something a little more unique
Only a handful of turbo 6's and none I know of along these lines
Apart from that turbo 1.8 from Turkey iirc that had a few sly mods

[Grant]

Ah ok. So do the jp4 bottom end, with the mi16/j4rs head, twin charge it on bodies, and drool at the sound of it.





Then cry when you look at the bank balance

[Ed Doe]

I swear lynx or similar sell a 'plug and play' supercharger system. All of the sensors are pre-charge so they don't throw a shit fit.
Ed was trying to explain it to me at the weekend lol.
Worth considering perhaps...

As above, the Lynx Kit uses all the stock sensors etc and the stock ecu, and for the '6 engine comes with a ~250-260hp map too...

It's not the 'best' way of doing it, as there is such a large volume to fill when you open the butterfly (the intercooler, pipework & inlet manifold!) it dulls throttle response mildly, and coming off the throttle and disengaging the clutch at high rpms causes it to stall unless you have the butterfly stop screw wound in slightly to effectively keep the throttle open a tiiiny amount.

The best way of doing the sc conversion is with a proper aftermarket ecu, but then you need a recirc valve, wiring harness, ecu, custom mapping, (cosworth 3bar?)map sensor and a patient person to modify the wiring loom on the car to fit it all together. It's more involved, and all-in more expensive than the Lynx conversion, which for what it is is bloody good. For their high-boost conversions, I believe they go stand-alone, with the above parts list (makes a lot more sense when you're spending in the region of £9-10k to do it as well as possible for maximum powerzzz!)

Anyways, I'll sh-up now.


I'm sure there were pics & a project thread on the '6 forum of a 1.6 overbored to 1.7 rotrex'd engine making silly hp figures in a racer...?

One last thing; I know it's a lot more "plug&play" but have you considered charging a 1.6 16v from a 106/spaxo VTS as your engine project? Lighter still, good for big power, and probably a bit more straightforward than the engine-build youre planning (though I must confess I haven't read what your actual plans are! :roll: )