Block work - stage 3

[dr_jekyll]

Many of you will know the stage 3 red shed

Basically im looking at rebuilding a power plant for it. The cars still on her original block at 250k, multiple oil leaks, breathes heavy, blows water etc..
Think its about yime i looked at building her an engine up but literally have no idea how far to go with it all.

My first thoughts are with the following:
- base engine 100k or younger
- full seals
- headgasket
- cambelt
- aux setup
- low mileage injectors
- low mileage r70
- new clutch
- refurbed gt2052s
- lashings of paint

ive read other places of people running 16v rods for added strentgh, stiffer valve springs and arp's. Is this actually needed? Apart from having a tired engine block, ive never had major issues with my block.

Is there more or less work people would advise??


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[Poodle]

Depends on what you're planning. If you're sticking with a small turbo at sensible boost it should be fine as is, maybe benefit from a bit of exhaust porting.

[dr_jekyll]

Depends on what you're planning. If you're sticking with a small turbo at sensible boost it should be fine as is, maybe benefit from a bit of exhaust porting.

Will keep the car on the gt2052s at 26psi. Its still on the 406 exhaust mani aswell which provides no porting advantages. Only issues ive had is it starts getting hot if i hold it on boost for agers

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[Piggy]

For all that effort.... 16v head.

[Ruan]

If you're not pushing any harder, just leave well alone, I wouldn't even touch the seals (main seals etc...) - unless you buy the OEM PSA ones and have the CORRECT tools to install them, I've seen more issues after replacement than being left well alone. Just get yourself a lowish mileage late 206 block and swap over all the bits off your 306 engine so it fits. The rods are significantly bigger in the later engines - remember that "16v rods" are the same part as 8v rods, it's just that most 16vs were made later than the 8v, so the rods you'll find in a 2.0 8v 90 are the same as what you'll find in a 2.0 16v 110 made at the same date on the production line.

If you're not having valve spring issues, leave them alone. I'd always put ARPs in these days, but that's me - you say it blows water, that's probably why.

I've never come across an engine that has been apart (pistons out of block...) that runs as well as one that was built at the PSA factory - soon as you start taking them apart, it always ends in an engine that isn't quite as good as it was when it left the factory.

Head off, clean gasket surface thoroughly, new MLS Gasket (Victor Reinz preferably) and new head bolts (or ARPs..) and leave alone. Otherwise just have sump off, clean the gasket surface thoroughly and use DECENT sealant (not the £5.99 shit you find in Halfords - Loctite 574 is a good shout), set of refurbished injectors (new nozzles, calibrated up etc..), then replace all drive belt & auxiliary system consumables and it's a sweet engine.

That's my opinion though, others will differ for sure.

[dr_jekyll]

If you're not pushing any harder, just leave well alone, I wouldn't even touch the seals (main seals etc...) - unless you buy the OEM PSA ones and have the CORRECT tools to install them, I've seen more issues after replacement than being left well alone. Just get yourself a lowish mileage late 206 block and swap over all the bits off your 306 engine so it fits. The rods are significantly bigger in the later engines - remember that "16v rods" are the same part as 8v rods, it's just that most 16vs were made later than the 8v, so the rods you'll find in a 2.0 8v 90 are the same as what you'll find in a 2.0 16v 110 made at the same date on the production line.

If you're not having valve spring issues, leave them alone. I'd always put ARPs in these days, but that's me - you say it blows water, that's probably why.

I've never come across an engine that has been apart (pistons out of block...) that runs as well as one that was built at the PSA factory - soon as you start taking them apart, it always ends in an engine that isn't quite as good as it was when it left the factory.

Head off, clean gasket surface thoroughly, new MLS Gasket (Victor Reinz preferably) and new head bolts (or ARPs..) and leave alone. Otherwise just have sump off, clean the gasket surface thoroughly and use DECENT sealant (not the £5.99 shit you find in Halfords - Loctite 574 is a good shout), set of refurbished injectors (new nozzles, calibrated up etc..), then replace all drive belt & auxiliary system consumables and it's a sweet engine.

That's my opinion though, others will differ for sure.

Thanks for that info.
With the valve springs im not 100% if i am experiencing issues with them. Coming out of 1st/2nd hitting it hard the car sounds like it has a rev limiter, not know what valve float properly is ive always asumed tgat to be the cause tho the engines never shat its pants doing it.
When you say that the water blow is due to the lack of arps does that mean i could be lifting the head? Its never caused oil to mix or anything else but find the water system can preassure badly and blow out the cap.. again pressumed this was the exhaust leaking into the water way like my first hdi did.
How would i go about finding some hdi arp headstuds? Not fussed about paying more to get them outside of a group buy but honestly wouldnt know where to look to purchase them.

And sorry for 101 questions.

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[Ruan]

Not sure why this thread is called block work - I've only just noticed, when I saw it I was hoping it was someone on about filling the water jackets for drag racing - shame.

I've never known any HDi/XUD mix it's oil/coolant - this is because the cylinder pressures are always very high, it'll just push combustion gas into the water jacket instead if the head gasket is breached, there isn't anywhere for the oil and water to mix - if the leak manages to get anywhere near the high pressure oil ascent circuit or descent circuit, you can guarantee the engine won't even attempt to start by that point it'll have so little compression. If it's leaking combustion gas into the coolant and pressurizing - that is a head gasket failure, whether that is due to the gasket itself failing due to age or the head bolts undergoing elastic/plastic deformation and allowing gas past - not sure.

"Sounds like it has a rev limiter" isn't particularly great diagnosis in honesty... You'll know you have it if you turn up the boost (therefore exhaust pressure is higher...) - at higher RPM the engine will fall flat on it's arse, exhaust go very loud and it'll smoke like hell. If you keep pressing through it, you're in danger of damage. Measure exhaust manifold pressure, it's the only way you'll ever know what's going on and whether you need the springs.

Infact - here is exactly what happens when your valve springs are too weak (or in this case - trying to get too much boost out a tiny turbo at high RPM): https://www.306oc.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?tid=35661

Notice the dyno curve... Too much juice at high RPM causing high EMP (probably too late EOI also) valve springs float, power goes down, pwarp, keep going and it'll snap a rocker.

[dr_jekyll]

If i can rename the thread somthing more sensible i will.

Was one of those "for want of a better word" scenarios. But reading that thread and the discription youve given i wouldnt put it down to valve bounce then.

Anyone know where i could possibly source arps from?

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[Ruan]

Valve bounce =/= valve float.

[dr_jekyll]

Yeah that [emoji23]

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[toseland]

just to clarify

valve float is where the valve doesnt fully close under the pressure of the spring before the cam lobe comes around to open it again (via the rocker or whatever mechanism is opening it). this is usually only an issue at very high RPMs. more than may be acheived with the default DW10 setup and running

Valve bounce is where the valve bounces back open a fraction from the force of the spring closing.

[pug306driver]

I wish my shed was tiled and centrally heated !

[Ruan]

just to clarify

valve float is where the valve doesnt fully close under the pressure of the spring before the cam lobe comes around to open it again (via the rocker or whatever mechanism is opening it).  this is usually only an issue at very high RPMs.  more than may be acheived with the default DW10 setup and running

Valve bounce is where the valve bounces back open a fraction from the force of the spring closing.

I've no clue what you're clarifying, what you've said is straight out of a wikipedia article and totally irrelevant.

[Esmyth124]

I've been reading up on this for some time..

can anyone on here give a definite reason why head work which would involve porting ect is not effective?

[Ruan]

It can be - but with DI Diesels you're more likely to make the situation worse than improve it - the swirl generation is very important to get good quality combustion at all engine speeds. Most of the time when Dave in his shed gets the die grinder out and opens the ports right up, the gas velocity falls flat on it's arse, the flow bench will say it's moving shit loads, but doesn't take into account what actually happens inside the ports.

But currently, the heads will flow enough for 250hp+ without any issues, even if we require pretty high boost pressure to get the air in the cylinders - good turbos will allow that all day long but it doesn't matter, since we cannot provide fuel to burn with that air. All 8v and 16v HDis are fuel limited basically as soon as a decent turbo goes on.

[Magenta Sunset]

I wish my shed was tiled and centrally heated !

wish I didn't live in a maisonette

[dr_jekyll]

I wish my shed was tiled and centrally heated !

wish I didn't live in a maisonette

Gonna be building this in my gf's flat!

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[Danny Wideboy]

just to clarify

valve float is where the valve doesnt fully close under the pressure of the spring before the cam lobe comes around to open it again (via the rocker or whatever mechanism is opening it).  this is usually only an issue at very high RPMs.  more than may be acheived with the default DW10 setup and running

Valve bounce is where the valve bounces back open a fraction from the force of the spring closing.

I've no clue what you're clarifying, what you've said is straight out of a wikipedia article and totally irrelevant.

Ha!

Repped.

[toseland]

It was for the op, he said he wasnt sure what float and bouce were..


danny, were you born a lady garden or is it something you developed with puberty?

[Danny Wideboy]

Born that way buddy.


Yourself?

[dr_jekyll]

Tbf the info did help but havnt ever bothered to look up what the terms meant

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[Piggy]

Born that way buddy.


Yourself?

Repped

[Mattcheese31]

keep it on topic please chaps, Facebook is the place to abuse and belittle each other

[dr_jekyll]

Ok-
Plan of action is as follows
- pre 100k lump
- victor reins mls headgasket
- ports/valves de-coked
- gates cambelt
- arp head studs
- new aux setup with manual tensioner
- low mileage injectors
- low mileage r70
- 1.6 hdi fps
- fresh paddle clutch
- gt2052s setup as already installed on current lump

Really struggerling to find much info on the arp head studs. Pretty obv nothings gonna fit directly but if someone could point me in the right direction i could always custom lathe spacers


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[Ruan]

It was for the op, he said he wasnt sure what float and bouce were..

Precisely my point as your description totally missed the actual reason that valves float on HDis - all of the reasons you stated do not happen on HDis.

I gave a pretty thorough description of exactly what happens a few posts above which appears to have been totally missed.

[toseland]

Ok-
Plan of action is as follows
- pre 100k lump
- victor reins mls headgasket
- ports/valves de-coked
- gates cambelt
- arp head studs
- new aux setup with manual tensioner
- low mileage injectors
- low mileage r70
- 1.6 hdi fps
- fresh paddle clutch
- gt2052s setup as already installed on current lump

Really struggerling to find much info on the arp head studs. Pretty obv nothings gonna fit directly but if someone could point me in the right direction i could always custom lathe spacers


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the XUD arp head studs will fit..  but you need to turn the spacers used on the XUD head down somewhat, reducing them 18mm rings a bell, but i will confirm as i machined my set down to fit the HDi 8v head suitably..

[dr_jekyll]

Ok-
Plan of action is as follows
- pre 100k lump
- victor reins mls headgasket
- ports/valves de-coked
- gates cambelt
- arp head studs
- new aux setup with manual tensioner
- low mileage injectors
- low mileage r70
- 1.6 hdi fps
- fresh paddle clutch
- gt2052s setup as already installed on current lump

Really struggerling to find much info on the arp head studs. Pretty obv nothings gonna fit directly but if someone could point me in the right direction i could always custom lathe spacers


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the XUD arp head studs will fit..  but you need to turn the spacers used on the XUD head down somewhat, reducing them 18mm rings a bell, but i will confirm as i machined my set down to fit the HDi 8v head suitably..

If you could confirm it would deffinatley be helpful. Where can i get the studs from?

If you cant find the dimensions i'll get a new stock set of head bolts as a comparitor and work it out myself as machining is one thing i can actually do.

The part im desperatley struggerling with is finding where to buy these studs even for an xud

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[mr_fish]

If you can find a part numbers (nuts/washers/studs) for XUD ones, then your able to go to any ARP stockist/dealer/etc and they can sort for you.

What I had to do for my 16v ones.

[dr_jekyll]

If you can find a part numbers (nuts/washers/studs) for XUD ones, then your able to go to any ARP stockist/dealer/etc and they can sort for you.

What I had to do for my 16v ones.

Legend thanks!

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[welshpug]

if there's nothing wrong with your current lump just use that.