UNI Rant

[Kezzieboy]

Oh, Niall, should've guessed you were a Tory

Unsurprising our ideas don't match up, seeing as I'm a socialist! In essence I believe in the redistribution of wealth, and fundamentally believe that capitalism is fairly shit, in a nutshell.

I agree Ruan, however all that requires is a slightly more sliding scale, as in my experience, 9 times out of 10 the current system works, i.e. my parents are poor, I get enough money to be self sufficient (just about), some of my flatmates come from middle class families, and their parents give them a bit of money so that they can live as comfortably as me.

I also agree about apprenticeships, as uni is pushed too hard at people who have no interested, but if people ARE interested they should have the same opportunities as anyone else, irrespective of economic standing.

[ginge191]

Just to chuck another spanner in the works..

Along the line of "if you can't afford it, you shouldn't go."

Please remember who COULD afford university, the rich, the higher classes and importantly the "ETON boys", Cameron, Borris, Clegg etc.

Those who have very little touch with the real type of lifestyle - this privalege has been opened up now to nearly everyone IF they want to. Not everyone wants to attend uni - and the protests was by those who WANT to study, not just random yobs.

So i ask again, should uni really be a privalege for the rich to get richer..

[Niall]

So what your saying is the government should pay for people to go to uni (because if we're all honest, most won't ever pay back their loans) but then that will leave us with millions of highly educated people which isn't always a good thing!
There HAS to be a variety of jobs in the world. The bin men who collect your rubbish are just as important as some of the top business men and MPs in this country. The country would just not work if everyone was on a level playing field (just to say, I do agree that there should be SOME equality in wealth between the rich and poor like the rich getting taxed higher but that's a whole different kettle of fish!)
As silly as this sounds, we need under educated people just as much as we need highly educated people in this country because if you just went and got a diploma in engineering for example, you wouldn't be happy working in mcdonnalds would you?

The level of mandatory education in this country is extremely high compared to most and that will set you up to start in life! Unfortunately now though schools tell you that you have to go to higher education to succeed in life which simply isn't true!

[ginge191]

So what your saying is the government should pay for people to go to uni (because if we're all honest, most won't ever pay back their loans) but then that will leave us with millions of highly educated people which isn't always a good thing!
There HAS to be a variety of jobs in the world. The bin men who collect your rubbish are just as important as some of the top business men and MPs in this country. The country would just not work if everyone was on a level playing field (just to say, I do agree that there should be SOME equality in wealth between the rich and poor like the rich getting taxed higher but that's a whole different kettle of fish!)
As silly as this sounds, we need under educated people just as much as we need highly educated people in this country because if you just went and got a diploma in engineering for example, you wouldn't be happy working in mcdonnalds would you?

The level of mandatory education in this country is extremely high compared to most and that will set you up to start in life! Unfortunately now though schools tell you that you have to go to higher education to succeed in life which simply isn't true!

So what's your beef with those who WANT to study on government loans? :|

not everyone attends university, in fact, the majority do not attend university

[mark_airey]

If everyone goes to uni for the sake of going to uni and because they can we will end up a nation of people who have degrees and think they are above everyone else because of this and instead of doing the lower paid jobs everyone will just sit around in their uni robes with a degree going "me clever, you clever too"................where the hell will that get us?

I see no problem in people going into further education if they choose to or if it is required for their chosen career but as Naill says, what happens if you then don't like the job??

[ginge191]

If everyone goes to uni for the sake of going to uni and because they can we will end up a nation of people who have degrees and think they are above everyone else because of this and instead of doing the lower paid jobs everyone will just sit around in their uni robes with a degree going "me clever, you clever too"................where the hell will that get us?

I see no problem in people going into further education if they choose to or if it is required for their chosen career but as Naill says, what happens if you then don't like the job??

This is true, there are some degrees which are very specific, luckily, many degrees provide transferable skills.. unless you specialise into something like dentistry, heart surgery and so on..

[Toms306]

Its good to see a proper debate on here for once, makes for interesting reading.

But I'm sitting on the fence with this really, I was considering Uni next year, I'd never been interested in it until a fe months ago:- A degree in mechanical engineering (which I believe DOES help later in life, not so much when we're 'young' though) and moving away from home, living alone, both seem very good reasons for going to Uni.

However, I can't really afford it, and I know I'd never get paid enough to pay back the loans which imo isn't fair on tax payers. But I also know I'm not 'smart' enough to do some of the main parts of the course (like maths!). And lastly, people go to uni for the social side as well, and in my current situation that would be pointless.

So I'm still unsure atm.......but fed up of my dad and step mum, my aunt, my nan and even some of the college tutors trying to push me into it!! As Niall and some others have said, that is the wrong way to go about it. I know people that are at Uni atm, pushed there by thier (albeit rich) parents.........they got pissed every night, shag anything they can and two of them failed their first year, what a waste of time and money!

I think an apprenticeship would be better for me........but I'm gonna take a few months to decide when college finishes......I'm hoping to get into my local garage while I decide, theyre not big enough to pay for an apprenticeship I don't think, but the experience and a little money would be good.

[Kezzieboy]

Tom's stumbled upon am interesting point there, most of the people I know who are on track to fail their first year have rich parents who are paying their way through uni, rather than having any form of student loan, and spend every night getting pissed. Go figure.

[ginge191]

Tom's stumbled upon am interesting point there, most of the people I know who are on track to fail their first year have rich parents who are paying their way through uni, rather than having any form of student loan, and spend every night getting pissed. Go figure.

If you were unaware, you can't pass uni by throwing money at them, if they fail year one, the institution will deal with them appropriately, more than likely giving them a chance to redo the year within a summer break OR kicking them off the course if attendence levels are low..

[Kezzieboy]

I didn't mean they were buying a degree, I meant that those who have student loans usually have no choice but to spend it on trivial stuff like food, and books. Whereas those whose parents pay for them will happily piss away money on booze.

[Ed Doe]

Yes but Ginge you're missing the point I believe Kezzie is making; that those throwing away the opportunity of being at university are those who are not being Government-funded; they're being paid for by their parents...

@ Tom, if you go down the engineering route, it will open up a lot of doors if you are intending to go into the industry. the route most take is bEng, MEng, CEng (chartered engineer). The latter can be undertaken as an assessment alongside your work, and once you've got it you can essentially charge what you want for your time. Its' winning!


I spent a while typing out my opinion last night, but then ended up deleting it in favour of watching topgear re-runs. I'll try to summarise now;

the way I see it, currently we have a raft of courses for which there should NOT be a degree qualification. They should be Vocational courses, taught at Polytechnics in my opinion.

The problem stems from the Labour govenment getting rid of the polytechnics and amalgamating all the courses into degrees undertaken at university. This is not right. I'm sorry but there is literally no rational argument for placing equal weight on 'Surf-science' (an actual course at Exeter's Falmouth Campus) and say Chemical Microbiology.

If you want to do surf science or a similar degree, I'm not against this by any means, but you are unlikely to contribute back to the economy even enough to cover the cost of the course. Which means it should not be funded in the same way as a degree course, and should not be given equal standing.


Furthermore, and I know it's easy for me to talk having finished the education system, but I think in reality we need to get away from this ridiculous culture where no one is allowed to fail, and of improving the statistics to have 'more than 50% of school-leavers going on to university'. A-levels should be harder, so they become more of a qualification, and those who do not wish to go further can go get a job off the back of these.

University should then provide an environment for the small percentage of truly bright minds in the country to further specialise in their chosen field. The goverment loans and grants will then be less stressed, and they will be able to properly budget to offer a far more comprehensive support package to make sure these bright minds can afford to be at university irrispective of background/financial circumstances etc.

University should certainly not be seen as a 'given' for those who can stumble through A-levels, so they can mooch off the government for another 3-4 years whilst learning Underwater Basket-weaving or some other dross, only to get a job under the minimum repayment threshold anyway and not end up paying anything back.


That is my opinion.

/rant


EDIT:

I would also like to point out I knew from AS levels that I wanted to do an engineering-based degree. I then found the Renewable Energy BSc course, and worked out there was likely to be a future in this field, and that the course info would be relevant and up-to-date. I did my 3years, graduated, and I can guarantee I would not be doing the job I am now without my degree. I also know where I'm going with it, and my degree will become even more important to where I intend to be in the next couple of years.

I'm also paying my student loan back, and by the looks of it will be set to do so for quite some time. But I've already worked out I'll pay it all off before I retire LOL

[ginge191]

Yeh, ed, i mis-understood what kezzie was saying above..

But i couldn't agree more to what you are implying here.

[mark_airey]

I'll be honest, I CBA to read Ed's post

[ginge191]

I'll be honest, I CBA to read Ed's post

in short:

- what logic made less academic degrees be studied in the same area (surfing vs chemistry)

- the government screwed it up

- his degree goes hand-in-hand with his degree

- A levels should be more of a test pre-uni

[Kimmie]

Think Ed has knocked it on the head for everyone!

[Ed Doe]

Shit you mean I can actually use '/thread' for REAL?!

[ginge191]

Shit you mean I can actually use '/thread' for REAL?!

yeh, GREAT job there ed........... hock: now we have NO ONE to argue with, now look what you gone and done!

[Ed Doe]

What makes a uni student better at my job than me?

Ebay coilovers?

Argument restored?

[ginge191]

What makes a uni student better at my job than me?

game...

What job do you do exactly? Personally, certain managerial roles are for degree students.

again, niall, degrees aren't just a piece of paper.

One example - An engineering officer through the forces requires a specialist or BSc degreee - this demonstrates dedication, organisational and competency. There is no way in saying that these skills are not in the labour force within the company, and you can work up to that position by all means, but that officer does NOT need to know how to do a job which he/she is managing. There is no need - that higher role is to organise staff roles, requirements and moral.

IF that higher position needs to know any details on that job, he/she can ask the labour force for those details in assisting managing time keeping and role assigning.

again, referring to your point earlier, there needs to be a variety - for a manager to be a specialist in the field they are managing, would only be a waste - their skills being sat behind a desk?? pointless..

[Kimmie]

Couldn't leave it be could you ginge....

I don't agree at all with what you've just said. I actually think it's pretty important for a manager to understand the role his staff carry out, otherwise how can you effectively manage them??

For example, there is no way I could manage the cleaning team without understanding their schedules, their procedures for carrying out tasks, the aspects of their role which are difficult to manage on a day-to-day basis etc. I couldn't assign the correct person to a task or put together a decent schedule. A small example, but I could go on for the Security team, catering, maintenance. For the record, I don't know as much as I should for those roles, but my manager does. And the only way she's learnt that is by working her way up through every department, so she has inside out knowledge of the whole team/job specification.

Also, central managerial roles are not just for those who are educated to degree level. Going back to the job experience, it's more valuable to have experience within that role/department than it is to have studied it from a classroom.

[ginge191]

I don't agree at all with what you've just said. I actually think it's pretty important for a manager to understand the role his staff carry out, otherwise how can you effectively manage them??

That's not exactly what i said, i said he/she doesn't need to know HOW TO do the job, the understanding of a job is crucial - the provision of safe work, equipment, stock, and again time management is all crucial, and to understand all of this, you must understand the work - not HOW TO do the work, this was more what i was going for.

IIRC Niall is an electrician?? apologies if wrong, but nonetheless and example, he knows HOW TO do the work, there would be a line manager somewhere along the line distributing the work, maintaining even work loads, ensuring everyone is equipped for the work and not overlapping the jobs. This manager won't necessarily know HOW TO take on the specific jobs and be a specilaist tradesman.

Please correct me if im completely wrong, but this has been the case for my previous work.

But again, i agree certain jobs require management who have worked up from the bottom.

[Kimmie]

Okay fair enough, that makes sense. I still think it's pretty important though. Especially when it comes to staffing issues, but that's another arguement...

[Grant]

What makes a uni student better at my job than me?

game...

What job do you do exactly? Personally, certain managerial roles are for degree students.

again, niall, degrees aren't just a piece of paper.

One example - An engineering officer through the forces requires a specialist or BSc degreee - this demonstrates dedication, organisational and competency. There is no way in saying that these skills are not in the labour force within the company, and you can work up to that position by all means, but that officer does NOT need to know how to do a job which he/she is managing. There is no need - that higher role is to organise staff roles, requirements and moral.

IF that higher position needs to know any details on that job, he/she can ask the labour force for those details in assisting managing time keeping and role assigning.

again, referring to your point earlier, there needs to be a variety - for a manager to be a specialist in the field they are managing, would only be a waste - their skills being sat behind a desk?? pointless..

You've got some front posting that on a public forum. A rather ambiguous statement, but the way I read that, you are insinuating that if you don't go to university you are uneducated and not worthy of a job that bears responsibility or big decisions.
I don't disagree with university, and I'm not saying that it's not worth the time, but to say what you have is close to the line mate. I don't have a degree, but I'm qualified within my trade, and deem myself no less competent than somebody with a degree. I might not have a peice of paper saying degree on it, but I could build a house out of the ground, wire it in, plumb it in and decorate it. All life skills I've picked up in my trade. The majority of the people I know at uni can't even gut up on time for lectures.


Like I say an ambiguous statement, but that's how it read to me.

[ginge191]

Grant: have you read any of my posts prior to the replied?

I've not said that all managerial roles require a degree nor have i said the labour force, i.e. the electricians, plumbers etc., are less important than anyone else at all..

This stemmed from niall asking whether someone with a degree can do his job or not, again, i mentioned diversity, each person needs a role, a qualified academic worker has a different role to that of a front line worker.

Again, read my previous posts in repsonse to niall's discussions

[Ed Doe]

*sigh* you were meant to argue about the coilovers..!

[Grant]

I tried for 3 pages not to get sucked uni this lol

I have read your previous comments, and mine was in reply to the one I quoted. I said it was an ambiguous statement, and what got me was how you say certain managerial roles are for degree students. I know it's been said but look at Alan sugar...
It's unfair to state someone is not capable of a particular job because they may or may not have been to uni. If you meant it like this I don't know, and I'm not going on a vendetta against you personally, as I think your alright, but that's just my opinions. I've seen it too often when I left school at 15 to work in the trade and most people's reaction was horror. So what? I you want to go to uni good on you, make the most of it, I you don't, it's your decision.

Love ya ginge <3

[mark_airey]

*sigh* you were meant to argue about the coilovers..!

[n0v0s]

Make the entry requirements of certain courses more harder, and most mickey mouse finger painting degrees would be out the window.

A friend of mine is studying music with 1 G at alevel - just wtf! Piss take really. My requirement a few yrs bk was a MINIMUM of 7 A*s at gsce and A's in 3 alevels ffs. Then we had a selection test called UKCAT, Were if you don't score greater thn 600, your app was binned.

Courses like chem are still relatively piss easy to get into. But an actual worthwhile degree in industry.

The problem today is the 'uni experience' is waaay to tempting for those actually better off doing vocational courses. And they know it! 'Man Met' for example

[Niall]

What makes a uni student better at my job than me?

game...

What job do you do exactly? Personally, certain managerial roles are for degree students.

again, niall, degrees aren't just a piece of paper.

One example - An engineering officer through the forces requires a specialist or BSc degreee - this demonstrates dedication, organisational and competency. There is no way in saying that these skills are not in the labour force within the company, and you can work up to that position by all means, but that officer does NOT need to know how to do a job which he/she is managing. There is no need - that higher role is to organise staff roles, requirements and moral.

IF that higher position needs to know any details on that job, he/she can ask the labour force for those details in assisting managing time keeping and role assigning.

again, referring to your point earlier, there needs to be a variety - for a manager to be a specialist in the field they are managing, would only be a waste - their skills being sat behind a desk?? pointless..

Woah this all took off since I last looked here!

Ginge I'm a fire alarm engineer. A job that requires me to have a knowledge of quite a few different fields. Did I go to college for it? No. Did I have any papers saying I could do it before I started the job? No (and it wasn't a trainee job btw).
Funnily enough there was 3 of us in my interview, 1 of which was a fresh graduate with a degree in electrical engineering. I can safely say from listening to him rabbit on about him self that he had no idea of the real world and this is probably why he didn't get the job. His fault? Possibily not. The unis and government are so insistent on telling people that uni WILL get you places in life and this is not 100% true.
I know of people who went to uni and got qualifications in various roles and they have never worked a day in that roll in their life. Why? Because despite what the unis and government want you to believe, it is not a ticket to the job of your dreams!

I also think you talk rubbish about some managerial roles are for graduates. Have you ever heard of the saying "don't make your staff do something you wouldn't do"?
A manager needs to have been in a role to understand the real role. It's all well and good sitting behind a desk being told how it is but is that how it happens in real life? Rarely! And for this reason, this is why you very rarely see young managers (excluding places like mcdonnalds lol). Because if you have just walked out of uni without doing the real job, chances are you have no clue as to how things really are! My personal opinion is that this is mainly due to the uni/government trying to tell everyone they can do anything with no limitations and that simply isn't true.

[Niall]

N0v0s agree completely but it will never happen because if the uni made it more difficult to let people into courses, they wouldn't be making their money. At the end of the day, a uni is just a business and like any business, their just out to make money and look after number 1!