Europe Trip and Nurburgring?

[JTaylor2005]

Well. My mates have asked if I want to go on a road trip over to Germany to go on the Nurburgring.
I know that would basically be torture for the car being thrown around a track that big so I would like to do my best to get it set up and ready for the abuse. 

Things I have done so far.

- Stage 1 map
- Straight through exhaust (pointless but sounds mean and I quite like it)
- Cyclones with decent tyres would be put on.
- Bilstein B4's all round with Eibach springs on the front.

Other than that, Nothing really.

I am thinking the following for on the track

- Definitely need a new rear axle. Would get this lowered 30mm to match the front.
- Some decent brakes? Gti-6 ones? and a set of good pads and disks.
- Take as much weight out as I could?
- Would the clutch take the stage 1 okay with track abuse?

Thanks everyone know there are a lot of guys on here that do track stuff so i'm sure there is plenty of experience

[Ruan]

Brakes - upgrade to a good set of GTi6s with good discs (not the cheapest ECP sell...) and a set of racy'ish (DS2500/M1144/M1155) pads.
Sort suspension & bushes, ensure all bushes and mounts are fresh and new.
Good quality oil - not Halfords 10w40 because "it's only a diesel".
Get some track experience before doing the ring - it's well regarded to be one of the most difficult, technical tracks out there. If you've no experience driving on track, I'd highly recommend going and doing at least a few track days beforehand, possibly get some tuition to be able to get the most out of the trip.

Why would the clutch take it any worse!? Unless you somehow start slipping the clutch and doing horrific gear changes with your foot welded to the carpet mid shift, the clutch will take it just like it takes it every other time you floor the throttle?!

[Poodle]

The straight-through exhaust will be helping, one of the best cheap mods you can do on a diesel. Everything you've said is right, the clutch should be fine. If you can get some cooling on the brakes that would help a lot, as would fresh fluid if it hasn't been done recently. Just make sure all your levels and pressures are right before you go for each lap - tyre pressures need to be lower depending on how hard you want to drive it. Check wheel bolts are tight too.

[Ruan]

Forgot that, good one Poodle.

You can never replace your brake fluid too much, DOT4 is hygroscopic (attracts water) and therefore likely to boil off and make your trousers go brown.

[JTaylor2005]

Brakes - upgrade to a good set of GTi6s with good discs (not the cheapest ECP sell...) and a set of racy'ish (DS2500/M1144/M1155) pads.
Sort suspension & bushes, ensure all bushes and mounts are fresh and new.
Good quality oil - not Halfords 10w40 because "it's only a diesel".
Get some track experience before doing the ring - it's well regarded to be one of the most difficult, technical tracks out there. If you've no experience driving on track, I'd highly recommend going and doing at least a few track days beforehand, possibly get some tuition to be able to get the most out of the trip.

Why would the clutch take it any worse!? Unless you somehow start slipping the clutch and doing horrific gear changes with your foot welded to the carpet mid shift, the clutch will take it just like it takes it every other time you floor the throttle?!

Okay so I will get looking for a set of them then  I have heard that I could need the GTi-6 master cylinder? I suppose decent brand brake fluid would hold up better as well rather than just cheap fluid?

Most of the front suspension is brand new now. Just need to do the engine mounts. The rear will need some looking at so might be in the search for a gti-6 rear beam or something along those lines or just a damn good refurb.

Oil has always been a good quality one in mine. I always use Shell Helix Ultra as tbf at £24 I am not going to argue. Eurocarparts often has good deals on that oil anyway.

As for experience I will have to see what I can find and book and where. I would agree though as having very little fast driving experience I think nerves would also be an issue with other cars being on there haha.

---

The straight-through exhaust will be helping, one of the best cheap mods you can do on a diesel. Everything you've said is right, the clutch should be fine. If you can get some cooling on the brakes that would help a lot, as would fresh fluid if it hasn't been done recently. Just make sure all your levels and pressures are right before you go for each lap - tyre pressures need to be lower depending on how hard you want to drive it. Check wheel bolts are tight too.

Thats good then. Clutch was done about 12k miles ago at a pretty cheap place but tbf it still feels great anyway.
Fluid is a good idea definitely. I was planning to do that soon anyway tbf.

Tyre pressures are a good shout I wouldn't have thought about. Lower is better up until a point then I suppose? Maybe knock 3 or so psi off the standard?

Cheers mate

[Piggy]

Track tyres and high spec pads.

Nothing better to spend your money on

[Ruan]

Brakes - upgrade to a good set of GTi6s with good discs (not the cheapest ECP sell...) and a set of racy'ish (DS2500/M1144/M1155) pads.
Sort suspension & bushes, ensure all bushes and mounts are fresh and new.
Good quality oil - not Halfords 10w40 because "it's only a diesel".
Get some track experience before doing the ring - it's well regarded to be one of the most difficult, technical tracks out there. If you've no experience driving on track, I'd highly recommend going and doing at least a few track days beforehand, possibly get some tuition to be able to get the most out of the trip.

Why would the clutch take it any worse!? Unless you somehow start slipping the clutch and doing horrific gear changes with your foot welded to the carpet mid shift, the clutch will take it just like it takes it every other time you floor the throttle?!

Okay so I will get looking for a set of them then  I have heard that I could need the GTi-6 master cylinder? I suppose decent brand brake fluid would hold up better as well rather than just cheap fluid?

Most of the front suspension is brand new now. Just need to do the engine mounts. The rear will need some looking at so might be in the search for a gti-6 rear beam or something along those lines or just a damn good refurb.

Oil has always been a good quality one in mine. I always use Shell Helix Ultra as tbf at £24 I am not going to argue. Eurocarparts often has good deals on that oil anyway.

As for experience I will have to see what I can find and book and where. I would agree though as having very little fast driving experience I think nerves would also be an issue with other cars being on there haha.

GTi6 master cylinder is a personal preference thing, I don't personally like them, makes the brakes too sensitive, but I like a pedal you've gotta push a bit - you simply move more fluid for a given pedal travel with the GTi6 MC. You will stop just as hard, but the pedal needs to move further to get the same amount of brake force - but it gives you a wider biting area, easier to control the stopping force you're applying.

I'd personally be using a top quality ester synthetic, not one of these "fancy bottle, same shit inside" ones like Helix/Magnatec etc - the detergents are way better and they cope with heat so much better.

[Piggy]

If its a ph3 hdi...I'd bet its already a gti6 mc

[Eeyore]

Ds2500 pads for sure!

[MY95]

Would love to do this sometime this summer.
First thing over anything else is making sure your brakes are fully functional and capable enough, engine and suspension etc arent anywhere near as important.

[Poodle]

Suspension is very important, if you crash due to LOOS from tired beam mounts it's just the same as crashing due to shit brakes lol.

I think Cully did a good bit on tyre pressures for track recently in his prject thread, as did Janne L, but i would have thought 3psi will be ok until you get more confident. Don't go all out for the first few laps,that's a guaranteed way to fall off the track, and watch/play as many laps of driving the ring as you can before going. There are a couple of corners that can really catch you out, don't get over-confident or try to be a hero and you'll be fine.

[cully]

i wouldn't be worried about the ring itself, you will be more concerend in watching your mirrors as everything will be faster than you!
drive within your and the cars limits if the car starts mis behaving back off, as you will have NO INSURANCE if you crash
and its expensive to repair barriers and get recovered off the ring its also long walk home with your suit case,

id be more concerend to get the car serviced for the 1500mile road trip

[Ruan]

Yup the above... Get yourself VERY good insurance or a credit card with a very hefty limit.

[cully]

Yup the above... Get yourself VERY good insurance or a credit card with a very hefty limit.

credit card is a very good point!
you need a way of covering the expence of what if!

when we wen't
we took 5 cars
1 car was written off at the ring it cost him 3500Euros for barrier repairs and recovery to the recovery storage unit!
the recovery charged for 1 nights storage and even for cleaning the flatbed lorry as it had oil on the bed i think this was around 300 euros

the guy signed over his V5 to the storage company as he couldnt get the car home as he was driving the ring with no insurance
also remember the guy still had finance on the car to pay once he got home without it

lucky enough there were enough of us to get him and his luggage home

[toseland]

If its a ph3 hdi...I'd bet its already a gti6 mc

they are VERY slightly smaller on these,   talking 0.4mm though so as good as is the same

[JTaylor2005]

Cheers for all the help and advice guys Gonna get my self a set of gti-6 brakes etc and get it all ready. I think tbh the descision to drive round the track will be made on the day when we turn up haha. Probably will just book a lap round in one of their fast cars. Looking a bit risky for someone like me with basically no track experience :/ lol

[MY95]

Id go for the 206 GTI 180/ 307 HDI 110 283s Jack, cheaper to buy, newer caliper and design and wider discs.

[Poodle]

Cheers for all the help and advice guys Gonna get my self a set of gti-6 brakes etc and get it all ready. I think tbh the descision to drive round the track will be made on the day when we turn up haha. Probably will just book a lap round in one of their fast cars. Looking a bit risky for someone like me with basically no track experience :/ lol

It's not risky at all if you don't try and play the hero, the guy Cully was talking about was driving like a total tool when he crashed. At the end of the day it's technically a public toll road and it needs to be treated as such - the traffic might all be traveling in the same direction and at high speeds, but it's just traffic the same as any other. You've got a sensible head on you, i'm sure you'll be fine - it's a great experience, be a shame to miss the opportunity.

[JTaylor2005]

Id go for the 206 GTI 180/ 307 HDI 110 283s Jack, cheaper to buy, newer caliper and design and wider discs.

Do they fit straight on then? If so I will definitely look into them thanks.

Cheers for all the help and advice guys Gonna get my self a set of gti-6 brakes etc and get it all ready. I think tbh the descision to drive round the track will be made on the day when we turn up haha. Probably will just book a lap round in one of their fast cars. Looking a bit risky for someone like me with basically no track experience :/ lol

It's not risky at all if you don't try and play the hero, the guy Cully was talking about was driving like a total tool when he crashed. At the end of the day it's technically a public toll road and it needs to be treated as such - the traffic might all be traveling in the same direction and at high speeds, but it's just traffic the same as any other. You've got a sensible head on you, i'm sure you'll be fine - it's a great experience, be a shame to miss the opportunity.

Yeah suppose so will try get the car best setup as possible before we go and then after driving all the way there I will probably be feeling brave enough haha. Cheers guys

[BiG K]

Id go for the 206 GTI 180/ 307 HDI 110 283s Jack, cheaper to buy, newer caliper and design and wider discs.

Do they fit straight on then? If so I will definitely look into them thanks.

Yep fit straight on with no issues, vibrations or squeaks. I have a set myself and use the 306 Lucas brake hoses. The 307 calipers have a slightly smaller piston diameter than the GTI6 brakes, so keep the standard MC (my ph3 HDi doesn't have a 23.8mm). On a different note, the wheel weights scraped the caliper on XSi 15", so it is a tight fit. Definitely worth it, the old 266mm were ok but felt overwhelmed over 50mph. With these, 90+mph it just bites down.

Engine wise, possibly intercooler + oil cooler.

Tyres - Bridgestone Potenza RE002 at a minimum. Toyo R888's would be better but are pricier.

Strut braces really sharpen up the front end and to be honest, if you are going through the hassle, you might as well refresh the bushes on the front (I hear Citreon berlingo P bushes and polybush are a good match but haven't done it myself yet so can't comment how it is)

I might have a set of brand new in box H&R Monotube Cup coilovers if you are interested? (debating whether to get it installed on my hdi...hmm)

[Alan_M]

Well. My mates have asked if I want to go on a road trip over to Germany to go on the Nurburgring.
I know that would basically be torture for the car being thrown around a track that big so I would like to do my best to get it set up and ready for the abuse. 

Things I have done so far.

- Stage 1 map
- Straight through exhaust (pointless but sounds mean and I quite like it)
- Cyclones with decent tyres would be put on.
- Bilstein B4's all round with Eibach springs on the front.

Other than that, Nothing really.

I am thinking the following for on the track

- Definitely need a new rear axle. Would get this lowered 30mm to match the front.
- Some decent brakes? Gti-6 ones? and a set of good pads and disks.
- Take as much weight out as I could?
- Would the clutch take the stage 1 okay with track abuse?

Thanks everyone know there are a lot of guys on here that do track stuff so i'm sure there is plenty of experience

To be honest, I'd be concentrating on making the car good for 1000s of miles for a roadtrip round Europe. A standard 306 HDi will be fine for a lap of the Ring as long as you don't go hoofing it and chasing times. Christ, there are coaches/campers/hirevans going round! Admittedly, there are a few bits that where a set of standard HDi brakes will die but that's approaching them at 3 figure speeds.

For your first and only lap on this occasion, just treat it like a B road but keep to the right and let faster stuff through. It's quite annoying get stuck behind slower cars/bikes who clearly have not paid attention to their mirrors. Overtake on the left as per German road rules. Oh, and keep an empty credit card handy. 

AS for your trip, thoroughly recommend the Alps on the Swiss-Italian border. Amazing roads and scenery!

[powerandtorque]

What Alan said! I've lapped it in a campervan FFS...

[JTaylor2005]

Well. My mates have asked if I want to go on a road trip over to Germany to go on the Nurburgring.
I know that would basically be torture for the car being thrown around a track that big so I would like to do my best to get it set up and ready for the abuse. 

Things I have done so far.

- Stage 1 map
- Straight through exhaust (pointless but sounds mean and I quite like it)
- Cyclones with decent tyres would be put on.
- Bilstein B4's all round with Eibach springs on the front.

Other than that, Nothing really.

I am thinking the following for on the track

- Definitely need a new rear axle. Would get this lowered 30mm to match the front.
- Some decent brakes? Gti-6 ones? and a set of good pads and disks.
- Take as much weight out as I could?
- Would the clutch take the stage 1 okay with track abuse?

Thanks everyone know there are a lot of guys on here that do track stuff so i'm sure there is plenty of experience

To be honest, I'd be concentrating on making the car good for 1000s of miles for a roadtrip round Europe. A standard 306 HDi will be fine for a lap of the Ring as long as you don't go hoofing it and chasing times. Christ, there are coaches/campers/hirevans going round! Admittedly, there are a few bits that where a set of standard HDi brakes will die but that's approaching them at 3 figure speeds.

For your first and only lap on this occasion, just treat it like a B road but keep to the right and let faster stuff through. It's quite annoying get stuck behind slower cars/bikes who clearly have not paid attention to their mirrors. Overtake on the left as per German road rules. Oh, and keep an empty credit card handy. 

AS for your trip, thoroughly recommend the Alps on the Swiss-Italian border. Amazing roads and scenery!

Yeah that makes sense. I wouldn't want to be the slow guy getting in everyone's way tbh haha. I think tbf the cars now in decent condition as well. Thanks everyone

[Poodle]

Yep fit straight on with no issues, vibrations or squeaks. I have a set myself and use the 306 Lucas brake hoses. The 307 calipers have a slightly smaller piston diameter than the GTI6 brakes, so keep the standard MC (my ph3 HDi doesn't have a 23.8mm). On a different note, the wheel weights scraped the caliper on XSi 15", so it is a tight fit. Definitely worth it, the old 266mm were ok but felt overwhelmed over 50mph. With these, 90+mph it just bites down.

Engine wise, possibly intercooler + oil cooler.

Tyres - Bridgestone Potenza RE002 at a minimum. Toyo R888's would be better but are pricier.

Strut braces really sharpen up the front end and to be honest, if you are going through the hassle, you might as well refresh the bushes on the front (I hear Citreon berlingo P bushes and polybush are a good match but haven't done it myself yet so can't comment how it is)

I might have a set of brand new in box H&R Monotube Cup coilovers if you are interested? (debating whether to get it installed on my hdi...hmm)

Not being funny, but if your 266mm brakes struggled over 50mph the issue won't be fixed by bigger discs and calipers. In reality it's typically down to cheap discs and pads, old fluid, weak hoses and/or partially seized calipers/sliders/pads.

Don't worry about mods, you'll be much better off making sure your basic maintenance is well up and together. You'd be amazed at the number of enthusiast-maintained vehicles i've seen with big brakes, expensive tyres, coilovers, etc, then gotten onto the inspection and found flat tyres, bushes that are shot to f*ck, balljoints hanging out, a brake pedal that doesn't work until the last 2" of travel, twisted brake hoses, loose bolts... Bit scary tbh, people are sketchy f*ckers sometimes lol.

[BiG K]

Yep fit straight on with no issues, vibrations or squeaks. I have a set myself and use the 306 Lucas brake hoses. The 307 calipers have a slightly smaller piston diameter than the GTI6 brakes, so keep the standard MC (my ph3 HDi doesn't have a 23.8mm). On a different note, the wheel weights scraped the caliper on XSi 15", so it is a tight fit. Definitely worth it, the old 266mm were ok but felt overwhelmed over 50mph. With these, 90+mph it just bites down.

Engine wise, possibly intercooler + oil cooler.

Tyres - Bridgestone Potenza RE002 at a minimum. Toyo R888's would be better but are pricier.

Strut braces really sharpen up the front end and to be honest, if you are going through the hassle, you might as well refresh the bushes on the front (I hear Citreon berlingo P bushes and polybush are a good match but haven't done it myself yet so can't comment how it is)

I might have a set of brand new in box H&R Monotube Cup coilovers if you are interested? (debating whether to get it installed on my hdi...hmm)

Not being funny, but if your 266mm brakes struggled over 50mph the issue won't be fixed by bigger discs and calipers. In reality it's typically down to cheap discs and pads, old fluid, weak hoses and/or partially seized calipers/sliders/pads.

Don't worry about mods, you'll be much better off making sure your basic maintenance is well up and together. You'd be amazed at the number of enthusiast-maintained vehicles i've seen with big brakes, expensive tyres, coilovers, etc, then gotten onto the inspection and found flat tyres, bushes that are shot to f*ck, balljoints hanging out, a brake pedal that doesn't work until the last 2" of travel, twisted brake hoses, loose bolts... Bit scary tbh, people are sketchy f*ckers sometimes lol.

No worries Poodle, 266 setup the discs, pads, hoses, fluid was all Brembo, replaced approx 1 year before the upgrade. The brakes didn't "struggle", the 266mm still braked effectively, the 283mm are just a lot better over 50mph and it would be, the larger the diameter of the disc, the more force that is available to brake the disc.

I'll be the first to admit, brake force increase isn't that much. Assuming clamping force is the same (same MC, same piston diameter in the 307 brakes, same leg), Coefficient of friction is the same (using Brembo oem on both and both pads were roughly equal in size), there is roughly a 6.7% increase in braking torque.

That's where it gets interesting though, more braking torque means you can apply brakes harder faster. This can mean that the reaction time to maximum braking torque is more rapid, this can mean shorter braking distances if the brakes are applied quickly enough and is usually more noticeable under those circumstances where the rate of brake application is at its most significant - i.e. from high speeds, as you cover more ground at higher speeds (1/20th of a second is 1m at 60mph)

The maximum braking force applied is not the force applied at the brake disc, it's the coefficient of friction between your tyre and the road. When Peugeot were choosing which brake setup to use 15-20 years ago, they would have made a compromise between coefficient of friction between tyres & the tarmac, cost, unsprung mass, sprung mass, use of vehicle (and some more, too late at night). I have noticed a definite change in tyre compounds, most likely due to the introduction of silica, which now can have higher grip with lower rolling resistance (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oV_6u4Z5p-c), meaning we can use the extra braking torque quite effectively, as grip increases.

The other way to increase braking torque is to use pads with a higher coefficient of friction, i.e greenstuff / DS2500 etc and it is more cost efficient. However the friction is dependant on the temperature, too high and the friction drops off.

[Poodle]

Exactly, 6.7%.... That's a tiny difference to overall performance and not worth the outlay. Meh, just a difference in opinion, but i never felt my 266s were overwhelmed. Well, except the time i collapsed my rear beam by putting too much weight in the back of the estate, which i couldn't really blame on the brakes tbf.