A Frame Advice

[Nathan1305]

so to tow my Track car I was thinking of an A frame like this... http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.vie...1689223221 

I know a trailer is best but don't really have the space for one as such and I thought this could be a reasonable way of doing it. What do you guys think, should I go for this as a nice and easy towing option so I can do it myself. 

[Daniel306]

Any thing being towed that is over 750kg need to be braked, also if all 4 wheels are on the road it needs to be insured.

If it was me id be looking for a towing dolly, can get ex rac/AA ones fairly cheep

[swampy]

Fairly sure with one of those the car still needs to have tax and not in place!

And won't be much use if you have an "off"

---

Damn the above should say
Insurance and mot

[Nathan1305]

Any thing being towed that is over 750kg need to be braked, also if all 4 wheels are on the road it needs to be insured.

If it was me id be looking for a towing dolly, can get ex rac/AA ones fairly cheep

Thanks man  so if I go for a towing dolly I won't need the car insured or anything?

[Seb_Ryan]

Im fairly sure that dollys are for recovery/emergency use only aint they?

[toseland]

Any thing being towed that is over 750kg need to be braked, also if all 4 wheels are on the road it needs to be insured.

If it was me id be looking for a towing dolly, can get ex rac/AA ones fairly cheep

Braked yes... but insured no

legally you can tow up to the total, braked weight of 3500kg on a basic car licence, provided 2 things.. 1. you dont exceed the towing vehicle's rated towing weight. 2. assuming its over 750kg, it needs to be braked appropriately.

to tow any more, you need B+E on your licence.


as soon as the A frame is attached the DVLA and police should consider it (the entire thing- the thing being towed and a frame) a trailer..

you will fall foul of the legislation if its not braked and/or you dont have the correct lisence and/or you dont have the correct vehicle for towing something that heavy..


the police, specifically refering to a towing dolly, will consider it an issue if its not being used as "an emergency recovery" device.. ie to get you off a motorway and into a services pending a more suitable recovery

[Piggy]

May simply be cheaper and easier to insure and tax it!

[Nathan1305]

Any thing being towed that is over 750kg need to be braked, also if all 4 wheels are on the road it needs to be insured.

If it was me id be looking for a towing dolly, can get ex rac/AA ones fairly cheep

Braked yes... but insured no

legally you can tow up to the total, braked weight of 3500kg on a basic car licence, provided 2 things..  1. you dont exceed the towing vehicle's rated towing weight.  2. assuming its over 750kg, it needs to be braked appropriately.

to tow any more, you need B+E on your licence.


as soon as the A frame is attached the DVLA and police should consider it (the entire thing- the thing being towed and a frame) a trailer..

you will fall foul of the legislation if its not braked and/or you dont have the correct lisence and/or you dont have the correct vehicle for towing something that heavy..


the police, specifically refering to a towing dolly, will consider it an issue if its not being used as "an emergency recovery" device.. ie to get you off a motorway and into a services pending a more suitable recovery

Thanks mate that's helped, I just found a place near me that hire car trailers out for the day for £35  so that may be a cheaper option seeing as I will only need it when I'm going to track days

May simply be cheaper and easier to insure and tax it!

And definitely not. To insure the 106 will cost me around £1800. I'm already paying £2500 for the 306. Plus if the track car gets damaged how will I get home? Will be cheaper, easier and more practical to tow it.

[1616six]

Haven't read tose's reply as I'm in a rush but bare in mind the following:

Licences issued from 19 January 2013
From 19 January 2013, drivers passing a category B (car and small vehicle) test can tow:

small trailers weighing no more than 750kg
a trailer over 750kg as long as the combined weight of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM)
If you want to tow a trailer weighing more than 750kg, when the combined weight of the towing vehicle and trailer is more than 3,500kg, you’ll have to pass a further test and get B+E entitlement on your licence.

You’ll then be able to tow trailers up to 3,500kg.


IIRC you passed after that date?

[Nathan1305]

Haven't read tose's reply as I'm in a rush but bare in mind the following:

Licences issued from 19 January 2013
From 19 January 2013, drivers passing a category B (car and small vehicle) test can tow:

small trailers weighing no more than 750kg
a trailer over 750kg as long as the combined weight of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM)
If you want to tow a trailer weighing more than 750kg, when the combined weight of the towing vehicle and trailer is more than 3,500kg, you’ll have to pass a further test and get B+E entitlement on your licence.

You’ll then be able to tow trailers up to 3,500kg.


IIRC you passed after that date?

Yeah I passed March 2014

[toseland]

Haven't read tose's reply as I'm in a rush but bare in mind the following:

Licences issued from 19 January 2013
From 19 January 2013, drivers passing a category B (car and small vehicle) test can tow:

small trailers weighing no more than 750kg
a trailer over 750kg as long as the combined weight of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM)
If you want to tow a trailer weighing more than 750kg, when the combined weight of the towing vehicle and trailer is more than 3,500kg, you’ll have to pass a further test and get B+E entitlement on your licence.

You’ll then be able to tow trailers up to 3,500kg.


IIRC you passed after that date?

be careful... you can tow a TOTAL TRAIN weight (trailer,  AND car towing trailer) of 3500kg

[Dum-Dum]

So you can't tow your track car full stop then if you passed in March this year.

You can however drive a transit sized recovery truck with your track car fully on the back.

[Daniel306]

Im sure they do need to be insured, unless the law has changed.

[Nathan1305]

So you can't tow your track car full stop then if you passed in March this year.

You can however drive a transit sized recovery truck with your track car fully on the back.

Looks like my mums boyfriend will have to tow it for me on a trailer

[Toms306]

Why do they have to make the towing laws so damn confusing!

[Nathan1305]

Why do they have to make the towing laws so damn confusing!

That's what I was thinking :/ bit shit really but at least I have someone who could tow it for me I guess

[Dum-Dum]

Also on the subject of towing on an A frame apparently someone on this forum got done for no insurance for towing a car on one that wasn't insured however I have to admit that I was under the impression that once it was being fully controlled by the vehicle in front it became a trailer.


Nathan have you considered getting a lighter track car that you could tow yourself either on a dolly or a trailer. If it's light enough you don't need it braked you could build a trailer as a trailer is always the best option as then if the worst happens you can still tow it home even if it is a bit of a faf getting a 3 wheeled car onto a trailer. For under a grand and under 750kg you can get a dodgy 80s/90s kit car, a little kei car like a suzuki cappuccino or honda beat (very close to 750kg) or something very cool like a reliant kitten (RWD and easy to drop a bike engine in) or an old school mini just for a starters.


Reliant kitten (only just over 500kg standard), ripe for a bkie engine http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1977-Reliant-K...418bc5392f

[Toms306]

I understood that any wheels on the road and it had to be insured, MOTd and taxed, just as a normal road going car.

Also agree'd on a proper trailer, my neighbour does stock cars so uses a beavertail - the state the cars end up in from even low impact collisions is surprising though, would only take a sideways kerb clip to ruin the beam and stop you being able to use an A frame.

[Nathan1305]

Also on the subject of towing on an A frame apparently someone on this forum got done for no insurance for towing a car on one that wasn't insured however I have to admit that I was under the impression that once it was being fully controlled by the vehicle in front it became a trailer.


Nathan have you considered getting a lighter track car that you could tow yourself either on a dolly or a trailer. If it's light enough you don't need it braked you could build a trailer as a trailer is always the best option as then if the worst happens you can still tow it home even if it is a bit of a faf getting a 3 wheeled car onto a trailer. For under a grand and under 750kg you can get a dodgy 80s/90s kit car, a little kei car like a suzuki cappuccino or honda beat (very close to 750kg) or something very cool like a reliant kitten (RWD and easy to drop a bike engine in) or an old school mini just for a starters.

Minis have got pretty expensive now and I'm pretty happy with the 106, I think I will just rent a trailer for a while and get my mums boyfriend to tow it the eventually do the test to be able to tow up to 3500kg or whatever it is 

---

I understood that any wheels on the road and it had to be insured, MOTd and taxed, just as a normal road going car.  

Also agree'd on a proper trailer, my neighbour does stock cars so uses a beavertail - the state the cars end up in from even low impact collisions is surprising though, would only take a sideways kerb clip to ruin the beam and stop you being able to use an A frame.

Yeah exactly so trailer will be my best option  

[Jonahinoz]

Hi,

Be careful that a Transit carrying a car, plus passengers, tools, sandwiches, etc does not exceed the 3500kg limit for a Cat.B licence. A Cat.B+E can drive up to 3500kg, and plus a trailer that takes combined weight up to 7500kg. But any trailer over 3500kg MGW requires air brakes (which you can't afford) (OK, to be pedantic, there are options other than air brakes, but I've never seen them). So if you have a Cat.B, you are limited to 3500kg MGW TOTAL. And if you have a Cat.B+E, you are EFFECTIVELY limited to driving 3500kg MGV plus a 3500kg MGW trailer (or even a 3500kg ALW trailer, but do your own research on that).

Any tow car built after 1980ish will have a recomended towing limit shown on the VIN plate. It is an offence to exceed that limit, but that should not affect your Third Party insurance. You insurers may get po-faced if you claim for Own Damage. If a tow limit is not shown on the VIN plate, then it may be that the car is not approved for towing eg - Toyota IQ.

A car being towed is considered to be an UNBRAKED TRAILER, even if somebody is sitting in the driver's seat. Unfortunately, is also considered to be a car, so has to comply with legislation for both cars AND trailers. A braked trailer, unless built a long time ago, must be fitted with auto-reverse brakes, on all wheels ... difficult to do with a car on a dolly or A-frame.

I believe A-frames have been outlawed in main-land Europe, and I would not be surprised if UK follows suite.

If you drive anything heavier than your licence entitlement, you will be driving without a licence. If you don't have a licence ... you ain't insured.

My advice to anybody who has a lot of driving years in front of them, is to spend a few hundred pounds on passing a trailer test. Do it NOW ... it ain't going to get any easier.

To anybody who passed their test prior to 1997 (?) and has Cat.B+E, plus Cat C and D. be aware that when you turn 70, you will be dropped to Cat B+E, but keep your moped entitlement, unless you pass a medical at your own expense. Diabetics need not apply. For a few years, I was in the silly situation of having to wear L-plates and be accompanied by SWMBO if driving anything over 3500kg, even though I taught HER to drive. That ignoble situation changed when she turned 70.

If you are disqualified, I think your new licence will be Cat.B only. But cheque that.

602

602

[toseland]

yeah you have to retake your test for disqual... so its a new licence..

this towing lark is a really grey area.. and one a lot of my offroading compadres fall foul of quite often.. towing to or from

the law states it becomes a trailor when towed... the police want it insured as a car AND following towing regs... the DVLA are, well, the DVLA

to be brutally honest they should just ban towing UNLESS you have done a test for it..

most of them have gotten an B+E entitlement now or had their ticket long enough to drive with grandfathered rights.

[Jonahinoz]

<<< the law states it becomes a trailor when towed... the police want it insured as a car AND following towing regs... the DVLA are, well, the DVLA >>>

Hi,

Case Law has established tha ANYTHING on wheels that is being towed is a trailer. That definition could include a kid on roller skates hanging onto your back bumper.

Does anybody have a Trade Licence? DVLA provide an information/advice sheet along with the application. One bit of advice they give is that "if one vehicle tows another THEY ARE ONE VEHICLE". The case they quote is that a vehicle temporarily in your keeping, and being driven on a Trade Licence, may not tow a vehicle that you own ... cos it is not temporary. So the towing vehicle needs to be taxed. But, by implication, the towed vehicle does not need to be taxed. Vehicles exempt from displaying a tax disc are also exempt from MOT. And no, I don't want to argue that in court ... unless I really have too.

My insurance covers trailers connected to my car, but for Third Party only. Plod is only interested in Third Party cover. I'd prefer not to have to argue that in court either.

Somewhere in "My Pictures" I have a copy of that Trade Licence Information leaflet. But I can't remember what I filed it under.

602