Diesels in london

[THE_Liam]

The main problem with electric cars isn't the pollution - it's the fact that driving one makes your penis turn inside-out, pop into your pelvis and become a vagina.

[Pebbles167]

The main problem with electric cars isn't the pollution - it's the fact that driving one makes your penis turn inside-out, pop into your pelvis and become a vagina.

Scary stuff that. I literally watched the same thing happen to a friend, now all he/she talks about is handbags and eastenders.

I miss him

[THE_Liam]

The main problem with electric cars isn't the pollution - it's the fact that driving one makes your penis turn inside-out, pop into your pelvis and become a vagina.

Scary stuff that. I literally watched the same thing happen to a friend, now all he/she talks about is handbags and eastenders.

I miss him

Actually watched it pop inside-out? Now that's a close friendship...

[kentiiboii]

Never been to that london so will probably never affect me.
But does sound wrong!

[Toms306]

The main problem with electric cars is their complete lack of range, charging time and ridiculous initial cost... They'll never take off enough for the gov't to bother taxing them imo.

Hybrid is the way to go until Hydrogen is further developed. But even then, doesn't it take electricity to break Hydrogens off of other atoms lol...

[lolsteve]

Yea but you could use renewable sources of electricity to break up the hydrogen atoms and what not. so use renewable to create the hydrogen and be done with batteries which are quite inefficient ?

[Dum-Dum]

The problem with electric is the batteries and the cost (both environmentally and financially) of making them.

Personally I think if we got to a stage where we were running a much higher blend of bio fuel in petrol and diesel and persuading people to use cars less would be the best. I try and not use the car if i can avoid it and car share to go to work if i have to use a car but too many people drive everywhere and its just lazy, like journeys where i'm sure walking is quicker.

[THE_Liam]

Yea but you could use renewable sources of electricity to break up the hydrogen atoms and what not. so use renewable to create the hydrogen and be done with batteries which are quite inefficient ?

SCIENCE BITCH.

[nominous]

Been in Shanghai last week whilst this was kicking off over here.
You don't want to see that level of air pollution over here....

Already in Germany older diesels (anything without a DPF) are banned from a list of cities.
Time is not on our side.

Veg burners will emit less pollution.
Perhaps there is a need to band together and obtain an exclusion?


Steve, Iceland were going to go down the path of a hydrogen economy, with all the geothermal and hydro power available to them, but then they had this little banking issue and it seems their enthusiasm wavered.
Big shame really, one of the the only places in the world which could likely pull such a thing off and would be rather good for getting them off a 100% fossil fuel import problem.
Insert tin foil hat conspiracy theory here.

[Ruan]

I do not see how on earth the governments world over can possibly claim that electric cars are a "green" form of transport - absolute crap!

Go and have a look at the manufacture of Lithium Polymer batteries, electric motors, lead acid batteries etc... How they can possibly claim this is a GREEN way of making cars I don't know... Not to mention the fact that the energy has to come from somewhere - generally oil/coal and a bit of nuclear. We're not building any nuclear plants (which we should IMHO, just don't have them run by the bloody French like we do at the moment...), the renewables can't come fast enough and making that many PV panels, I've not looked into the amount of energy used to make a PV array, but I bet it's not insignificant, same goes for wind and tidal (admittedly I think tidal power is about the best we've got...)

[Niall]

I have a feeling PV is a fairly big thing. I know my old man was employed at one point to survey a huge huge amount of acres in order for them to be filled with panels.

I know its a different type of battery but we use a hell of a lot of Yuasa batteries. The only country they can be made in the world is China due to their 'no fucks given' approach to emissions and pollution. This goes for nearly every single battery about.
If i remember rightly, A prius has to cover 170,000 miles before it starts to become more environmentally friendly than your traditional engined car.
Considering the Swedish demand their cars are made to be 98% recyclable minimum before they are legally allowed to be made in their country, i bet driving a petrol or derv Volvo will far outweigh something like an Ampera

[lolsteve]

So certain i read quite a few years back that the pv panels on the market back then used so much oil to make and gave back so little that they weren't in truth very viable. Think thats changed a bit since then so who knows in 10 years we might have improved the panel ever further making it actually worth something

if you really want to knock back carbon emissions find a replacement for concrete that stuff is just terrible, concrete alone accounts for more than 5% of the global co2 emissions which is more than the aviation industry . Hence two dissertations on finding alternative materials such as earth packed car tyres and cross laminated timber panels both of which would provide very sustainable housing.

[Niall]

Replace concrete with wood. Its strong, carbon neutral, renewable and wooden buildings look so much nicer than concrete.

[bashbarnard]

I have a feeling PV is a fairly big thing. I know my old man was employed at one point to survey a huge huge amount of acres in order for them to be filled with panels.

I know its a different type of battery but we use a hell of a lot of Yuasa batteries. The only country they can be made in the world is China due to their 'no fucks given' approach to emissions and pollution. This goes for nearly every single battery about.
If i remember rightly, A prius has to cover 170,000 miles before it starts to become more environmentally friendly than your traditional engined car.
Considering the Swedish demand their cars are made to be 98% recyclable minimum before they are legally allowed to be made in their country, i bet driving a petrol or derv Volvo will far outweigh something like an Ampera

I didnt know the prius thing to be fair. Also 98 % recyclable im for. Peugeot have an aim for 25 % recyclable material in there cars by 2015. In comparison this is awful.

My opinion is im keeping older cars on the road rather than keep buying a new one that has to be made using fossil fuels. Therefore my motor is environmentally friendly (ish) plus it runs on a renewable energy source. We should be the ones getting discountted thing as weve made an old vehicle better.

[nominous]

Yet the UK ran the scrapage scheme to get dirty, old, inefficient cars off the road and replace them with shiny new ones.
Actually more about propping up the motor industry, but YMMV.
The sensible thing to do would be to address the current installed base. So that's bio fuels.
But that needs to be done in lab conditions with agle or something designed and engineered for the task, not using vast tracts of land to grow fuel (palm oil & sugar cane).

For public transport IMHO due to the constant stop and start, electric buses make some sense over diesel.
For pollution reasons and use of fuel whilst idling etc.
One thing I saw were rapid charging points above bus stops, rather than wires everywhere.
Doesn't have to be stored battery power, can use large flywheel mass for example.


Business doesn't like recycle or extended use. There is no profit in it for them.
They need to sell you something new and better. Constantly. To make money for shareholders.
The entire system is skewed to consume resources and destroy the planet.
It would need apocalyptic change to move us over to a green mind set.
A massive reduction in our living standards and would have to happen everywhere at once.

All we are doing right now is window dressing.
The "Pious" is a good example of that. Make a few hipsters feel good whilst ignoring the actual issues.

[Ruan]

Or maybe why don't we do the REALLY sensible thing and rather than have Diesel engines sat in their most inefficient area almost all of the time, put them to use as a Diesel-Electric - have the engine power electric motors - even if you want, have a few small batteries, just to get the show kicked off until the engine can start and provide power.

That way you can have am engine that sits in it's absolute peak efficiency area generating electricity. Make it super, super quiet - IMO this is the best way to go. Then if you absolutely must, have it so that you can turn the motor off in urban environments.

[lolsteve]

Replace concrete with wood. Its strong, carbon neutral, renewable and wooden buildings look so much nicer than concrete.

Hence my 4th year dissertation , designed a 9 story residential building made entirely of timber (cross laminated panels if we're going to be picky) . Just by growing the timber required to build it removed 740 tonnes of co2 from the atmosphere rather than the 84kg produced by concrete per tonne used

[nominous]

Curious.
What's the life time and the maintenance requirements?
What extra coatings would the panels need over concrete to be durable and weather resistant, and what environmental impact is needed for the production of those products?
I'm assuming it's not just bare wood ?

[bashbarnard]

Replace concrete with wood. Its strong, carbon neutral, renewable and wooden buildings look so much nicer than concrete.

Hence my 4th year dissertation , designed a 9 story residential building made entirely of timber (cross laminated panels if we're going to be picky) . Just by growing the timber required to build it removed 740 tonnes of co2 from the atmosphere rather than the 84kg produced by concrete per tonne used

Design my house

[lolsteve]

Curious.
What's the life time and the maintenance requirements?
What extra coatings would the panels need over concrete to be durable and weather resistant, and what environmental impact is needed for the production of those products?
I'm assuming it's not just bare wood ?

The timber used in the design was cross laminated timber panels which unfortunately are primarily made in Austria, this negates some of the positive environmental aspects of the material as you'd have to ship it in. But even still if the material removes 780 tonnes of co2 from the atmosphere and then you emit 500 shipping it over you're still in the plus against concrete or steel which looses from the word go.

External usage of the timber would put it under timber class 3.1, which the panels are not made for, hence requiring a facia covering which I guess could be made out of recycled plastics for added eco-ness. Adding a facia seems to be a increasingly common practise especially as a cheap way of tarting up old buildings (see Richmond building in Bradford) so should be simple enough to find a supplier to implement this system. The facia would have to be designed to allow the timber to breathe afterwards so any moisture doesn't become trapped and rot it out.

Treated timber will have an expected minimum lifespan of 60 years however as old houses have proven if the timber is kept dry (less than 20% moisture content) it'll last for years and years. So seeing a 100 year lifespan isn't impossible which is a ruddy long time and there's a good chance the building could be decommissioned in that time which provides another benefit being that the timber could be reused if its dissembled panel by panel or burnt for fuel a feature not found on concrete

There is a structure in london built the same way called murray grove, which is where i got the initial idea from. Just wanted to prove it is a viable solution and maybe work on something similar myself someday.

design my house

Only if i can make it in the shape of a pair of jubblies can't imagine you'd get planning permission for it though

[bashbarnard]

I dont think the mrs wants to live in a set of tits. Few years as yet but ideas for the build keep floating about.

[C.A.R.]

The main problem with electric cars isn't the pollution - it's the fact that driving one makes your penis turn inside-out, pop into your pelvis and become a vagina.

Like it or not - it will be the future IMO. With Electric cars becoming 'mainstream' and advanced petrol engines for performance-orientated cars or those with greater range.

I recently had a browse of this very brave thread on Pistonheads and it makes for quite interesting reading on the new Nissan Leaf -
http://www.pistonheads.com/gAssing/topic...eaf+Acenta

Yes - there are LOTS of downsides. Any journey over 85 miles is going to require careful planning. Then there's the charging points - you don't pay to charge at a public charging point, but as electric cars become more popular the demand for charging points will outstrip what's available at any given time - especially at motorway service stations.

This fella paid (or is financing) around £13k for his Leaf, whilst leasing the battery from Nissan simultaneously. Compare that to a Golf or similar and it really is starting to make sense, especially if you do less than 50 miles a day - like me.

Consider that this is very early days and the Nissan Leaf is one of the first marketed fully-electric cars and the future does look quite interesting for them. Range extension, the performance of the BMW i8 (strictly a hybrid) and so on.

I think diesel will die the death eventually and will only be seen in heavy plant vehicles and long-distance HGVs.

[Niall]

Fully electric cars will never become mainstream in our life times IMO. They just aren't practical enough and aren't environmentally friendly as people think.
For people who don't care about speed and want small little cars, the way forwards will be tiny little charged petrol engines.
For people who want a bit more go, petrol/hybrid engines will be the one to have. Look at the P1 for example. Easily more economical than a 6 and creates over 900hp!

[C.A.R.]

I think they will tbh.

Consider that it's very early days, but also consider the difference in cars from 20 years ago to today. 20 years of developing electric cars is going to create some very interesting results.

The battery technology is the big 'hurdle' if you like. A Nissan Leaf is surprisingly nippy - it has all of its' torque/power available from 0rpm. Zero. So imagine a traffic-light GP with one? I'm not sure I'd fancy my chances, personally.

I'm very into my RC cars but took a 5 year time-out until very recently. The developments are unreal. LiPo batteries deliver more power, are lighter and last longer. Brushless cars now vastly outrun the equivalent nitro engined alternatives. I think we'll see this on a much bigger scale too, only over a greater timespan.

The electric car and the self-driving car also go hand-in-hand. I reckon that driving in the future will be very different indeed. Ragging a car may be limited to the networks of B-roads and trackdays before you know it. Government incentives will force people into newer, disposable cars designed to last 5-7 years before being 'recycled', making older cars obsolete.

[nominous]

The timber used in the design was cross laminated timber panels which unfortunately are primarily made in Austria

Yeah, we seem to have gone down the route of buring it as "biomass" rather than using it for anything useful.
Unfortunately the Uk has a legacy of not having faith in wood as a construction material.
Probably not helped by garden sheds and a need to paint them every couple of year, but rot out regardless

Treated timber will have an expected minimum lifespan of 60 years however as old houses have proven if the timber is kept dry (less than 20% moisture content) it'll last for years and years. So seeing a 100 year lifespan isn't impossible which is a ruddy long time and there's a good chance the building could be decommissioned in that time which provides another benefit being that the timber could be reused if its dissembled panel by panel or burnt for fuel a feature not found on concrete

That's the problem with timber. For a house such a lifespan is very short.
But then there are timber houses in some places in the world that are many hundreds of years old with the majority of their timber original.
Is this specifically a problem in the UK?
I do agree that a 9 storey building is more likely to be redeveloped at some stage.
If the construction costs were significantly cheaper than concrete then that could well be a consideration.

There is a structure in london built the same way called murray grove, which is where i got the initial idea from. Just wanted to prove it is a viable solution and maybe work on something similar myself someday.

I want to build my own place. recently in my area there was an expo for an area of land that a developer wants to provide reasonable plots to people to build unique houses on. it seems the caveat being that one must use their building company, but also that it must be made from wood.
meanwhile I wish to build my own garage. I'm looking at blocks or wood and blocks are winning because despite not being able to brick lay yet, they are mush more hard wearing than a timber alternative and wont need much maintenance over the life of the building. Plus resale of the property I believe will be easier if it is bricks than wood.

I'm quite into the idea of eco but it's purely a financial thing. I'm not going to pretend to be a greenie, I want lower bills.
Hence veg oil and solar DHW and WMO boiler conversion.



The solution to electric cars now seems to be towing a diesel genset for range.
Which goes back to someone said above, having a diesel gen running in peak efficiency, charging the batteries or supplying direct to the motors.

[lolsteve]

I think the turning point was the great fire of london, city councils got scared by the idea of half their cities being kindle waiting to catch fire so they made a push to move to masonry etc
You can see the lack of faith in it as a material even in the 3 little pigs story, the straw and stick/wood houses fall but brick is strong and mighty which protects the little pig. Whether that's a coincidence or not is up to you but it made for some good writing

It does seem like a short lifespan but that 60 years is the minimum time, so it could well see past that. The problem with making materials that last forever is that they don't really go away, yes the concrete becomes rubble but it ends up in some landfill somewhere not degrading away. some of the concrete tower blocks/housing projects of the 50s/60s are starting to be decommissioned now so they're only reaching the 60 year mark themselves.
Think our humidity and wet winters doesn't help much with timber lifespan but should be fine if kept dry

Material costs the timber looses , a clt structure costs on average £240 per m2 whereas an equivalent steel/concrete structure is £190. for a 25 x 25m structure there will be an additional cost of £31,250 per 1m development height or £68,750 per floor if we assume a 2.2m floor height, which after 9 stories adds up to well an additional £620,000 in materials alone. However since the material is new and not well established its understandable it's more pricey, if it became more in demand we could see the price fall a bit
The cost advantage of timber though is the on site costs. Constructing the Murray grove building took 9 weeks to complete by a 4 man team working 3 days a week. a total of less than a month to construct a 9 story building and the only real plant they needed on site was a mobile crane unlike concrete which needs the storage tanks, mixers etc or steel which needs heavy duty cranes and welding equipment and so forth

Initial costs are very off putting and it does seem for the most part that timber building is a bit of a gimic like " look we care about the environment" rather than genuine costs/insulation reasons. Although that is a good idea by the building company, would like the opportunity to create my own eco home some day too.
Timber would be more than adequate for a garage though, you could run a brick layer along the bottom to keep the timber off the ground then possibly build a structurally insulated panel frame on top. Easy to assemble and would be very well insulated for those cold winters working on the car

---

I dont think the mrs wants to live in a set of tits. Few years as yet but ideas for the build keep floating about.

She'll be fine If in a couple of years you actually want to get the project moving give us a ring. By then I should have some experience under my belt to do the calculations correctly and can use the project to add to my portfolio for becoming chartered

[lolsteve]

Cheers for the conversation about this , it caused ne to have a bit of a reread of my dissertation which came very handy for a job interview yesterday when I could clearly recite a lot of the information

[Magenta Sunset]

You mark my words, a few more years and it will be electric cars having to pay tax or something similar...

funny you said this. how prophetic - - - -!

---

Scary stuff that. I literally watched the same thing happen to a friend, now all he/she talks about is handbags and eastenders.

I miss him

I would NEVER talk about that crap!

---

All we are doing right now is window dressing.
The "Pious" is a good example of that. Make a few hipsters feel good whilst ignoring the actual issues.