General TD04 questions

[con67]

I'll say a td04 only keeping the standard sdi injectors and pump wont make a pile more hp and reduce torque and ruin the car, its apples and oranges here and it was only when people on our 'scene' realised that on the old forum did xud hp regularly pass 130-140bhp imo. Fuelling is gona be a massive issue on the rover above the gt15.

[Daniel306]

Anyone have a td04 the can tell me the od size of the inlet? so I can get some pipe to go to the airfilter

[CJ_Derv]

I wud if i cud get forearms down back of block but got a spare in garage so can measure tonight

[bigcheez2k3]

It's 2"/51mm I think. Been looking at piping for mine too.

[Daniel306]

Iv got a samco 90 then it goes to standard pipeing that was cut to suit but the standard bit is restrictive

[ste91]

I'll say a td04 only keeping the standard sdi injectors and pump wont make a pile more hp and reduce torque and ruin the car, its apples and oranges here and it was only when people on our 'scene' realised that on the old forum did xud hp regularly pass 130-140bhp imo. Fuelling is gona be a massive issue on the rover above the gt15.

Have you had any experience with the Rover L series?

I think they should be okay for up to around 170+bhp fuelling wise but that's not the main problem at the moment.

I guess the TD04 might not spool as early as I hoped after reading a few more posts on here, since we don't have such a large rev range to play with I'm thinking a GT2052/56 might be a better option.

As you say - it could ruin the car - and I totally agree if the turbo is TOO laggy with such a small amount of revs left to play with at the top end, it will be awful to drive at low revs and run out of revs too quickly at the top, this is what we don't want.

So it's only recently that 160+ bhp XUD's have been common then?

Oh and thanks for these helpful replies, some really good topics on this site, some good info I've spent quite a while searching/reading/watching videos.

[con67]

Honestly mate if your looking for some ideas I think your engine would be more comparable to a vp pumped vw tdi eg ALH/ASV, tdiclub is full of info even think there's a rover guy on it with a gt2260v, 'dakta' iirc. The L series I've only fixed not tuned but its a good engine imo. I think you'll find it hard going trying to get vag power levels but its not because they're particularly good its just they're sold in usa so lots of off the shelf parts and people throwing $$$$s at them and sharing the info.

[ste91]

Honestly mate if your looking for some ideas I think your engine would be more comparable to a vp pumped vw tdi eg ALH/ASV, tdiclub is full of info even think there's a rover guy on it with a gt2260v, 'dakta' iirc. The L series I've only fixed not tuned but its a good engine imo. I think you'll find it hard going trying to get vag power levels but its not because they're particularly good its just they're sold in usa so lots of off the shelf parts and people throwing $$$$s at them and sharing the info.

I know Dakta quite well from the MG/R forum, but again as always, not tuned for high power or not had it on a power run on a dyno.

The L series uses a VP pump too (earlier non-intercooled ones had VE) so I'll check the VW forum but as you say it's hard to even consider VAG power levels, the XUD is a much closer match.

Still got some good info from here though, I once questioned using the GT2052 on the Rover forum but it turned out the particular GT2052 most people think of had an awkward turbine housing (aimed the exhaust right at the block or the firewall, can't remember which) so was forgotten about, but I've now seen a few GT2052's with different housings as well as hearing good things about the 2056.

Loads of people tune VAG diesels, quite a few tune XUD's but hardly anyone has gone for high power on the L series so it really is unknown territory, a bit like the XUD was a few years ago I suppose.

[cwspellowe]

Put it this way.. can you make it smoke on boost? IF so, you need more boost.

But yeah the GT2052/56 would be a good shout imo. Mine's spooling hard and full boost is well before 3krpm, so should give you a good 2-2.5krpm of useable boost. If the piddly 9mm VE pump can make 170+bhp then i'm sure yours should be capable of the same, a GT1549 is pretty small and maxed out circa 150bhp is about on par with a maxed out T2 (one of the standard 306 turbos).

At the end of the day it's just fuel + air, if you smoke on boost you've not enough air, therefore bigger blower needed. And if as you say there's not much in the way of tuning L series engines, crack on and so it. Only one way to find out if it works! Once upon a time noone saw chronic boost in a 306, now it's readily available with so many Scooby owners upgrading blowers and parts being readily available for bolt on fitment.

The good thing about the XUD though is that we can shim the governor to raise the rev limit, so we can adapt the engine to blowers like TD04's and making the most of the higher revs, or we can increase low down fuelling and work towards faster spooling blowers with less top end.

A GT2056'd XUD would monster a TD04'd one off the line, but when the GT2056'd one runs out of puff the TD04'd one would keep going. Horses for courses.

[ste91]

Put it this way.. can you make it smoke on boost? IF so, you need more boost.

But yeah the GT2052/56 would be a good shout imo. Mine's spooling hard and full boost is well before 3krpm, so should give you a good 2-2.5krpm of useable boost. If the piddly 9mm VE pump can make 170+bhp then i'm sure yours should be capable of the same, a GT1549 is pretty small and maxed out circa 150bhp is about on par with a maxed out T2 (one of the standard 306 turbos).

At the end of the day it's just fuel + air, if you smoke on boost you've not enough air, therefore bigger blower needed. And if as you say there's not much in the way of tuning L series engines, crack on and so it. Only one way to find out if it works! Once upon a time noone saw chronic boost in a 306, now it's readily available with so many Scooby owners upgrading blowers and parts being readily available for bolt on fitment.

The good thing about the XUD though is that we can shim the governor to raise the rev limit, so we can adapt the engine to blowers like TD04's and making the most of the higher revs, or we can increase low down fuelling and work towards faster spooling blowers with less top end.

A GT2056'd XUD would monster a TD04'd one off the line, but when the GT2056'd one runs out of puff the TD04'd one would keep going. Horses for courses.

Was waiting for you to post about the GT20's lol as most of the searches I've done come up with posts from you saying how good they are.

Yes they smoke on boost, and yes we definitely need bigger turbos but nothing has been "established" in the sense that most people with XUD's know that they can easily and cheaply bolt on a TD04 if they want to.

So seeing as we're limited to about 4500 rpm (for reliability if nothing else), would you say a GT2052/56 would be ideal?
Fuelling is not an issue at the moment although no one has "maxxed out" the fuel pump as there isn't enough air to do so.

[cwspellowe]

Well.. considering your idle will be what, 800-1000rpm? My 56 is tunning 24psi at the mo, 20 of which come by 2.25krpm. Say yours did the same, you'd get 2.25krpm of useable boost, two thirds of your rev range. I'd say that's pretty respectable. It builds boost so quickly, mashing the pedal just lights the wheels up and to be honest, it's pretty useless in 2nd and even 3rd in the wet. My camber won't help that, but I can't wait for dryer weather to really test it.

My only concern is i'm still building confidence in it after killing two in quick succession. I know why they died each time and shouldn't be taken as a reflection on the turbo's reliability, first time was my fault for not assembling properly, second time was my fault for running as much fuel as the pump could handle and de-wastegating the turbo. Still, it's taken me a wee while to get the confidence to push the blower more and more. It should be fine at 24psi though, could probably take more, but after spending over £300 on the latest one, and about £700 in total on three blowers, it's got to the point of erring on the side of caution

I was in the same position as you with the blower though. Ruan had suggested it to me and noone on here (as far as I know?) has run the same turbo, so it was always going to be an experiment, it seems to be paying off but won't have any way of knowing until it's properly dyno'd.

I'd say in terms of spool time and torque delivery though, it's the closest thing to a VNT you're going to get. hotside/compressor ratios seem perfect for these engines. My pump's only mildly gov modded and I barely take it to 5krpm, so pretty similar to you.

[Daniel306]

How hard would it be to fit a bosch VE pump?

[ste91]

How hard would it be to fit a bosch VE pump?

The earlier models have a VE pump as standard HOWEVER they spin the opposite way to the XUD ones otherwise we'd probably all be running them and saving on the cost and hassle of remaps lol.


Thanks cwspellowe that's what I wanted to hear.

[Ruan]

Your biggest problem with the L Series is that it IS Direct Injection. - whilst DI is a much better technology, it causes other issues...

Now you can fit 300tdi nozzles which are a significant upgrade as I understand, but you will still be left with the same issues, DIs require short injections, they only have the heat in their cylinders for a relatively short period (in comparison to an XUD) so long injection times (i.e. more fuel on stock injector nozzles) simply equals longer injection lengths, IDI can get away with this since the precombustion chamber is RED hot throughout the whole stroke, hence why an IDI can rev higher and make more power up high on stock injector nozzles.



You can there see the difference between a DI nozzle and an IDI nozzle on the right - the IDI nozzle - the needle literally is exposed, once the needle lifts, the fuel can flow straight out - versus a DI nozzle where there's a cover over the end which atomizes the fuel through 5 or 6 holes - of about 0.15mm in diameter.

Your best option is big injector nozzles (in which case your map is going to have to be changed quite a bit, but afaik there is Damos files for the EDC15/MSA15 on them). Maybe fitting an 11mm injection head (IIRC they're 10mm as standard, but obviously reverse, but I'm sure there's a few 11mms out there that are reverse).

From when I looked at an L series - the heads on them really are very poor, great for emissions and swirl at their stock power level, but not great for power, but you need to remember that you've not got swirl chambers like an XUD - so the valves and head are inducing the swirl that's required for good combustion and it's seriously easy to screw up the swirl with head work etc.

Because of all this - it's all set for the L series in relation to an XUD9 doesn't like revs, big nozzles will definitely improve this - getting fuel in a shorter time etc. You're not going to be able to "get away" with as bigger turbos as an XUD without significant problems. However there is a good bit, you can get seriously improved torque figures, the head is set up for low down torque etc. With properly sized turbos you can get serious power out of them, they'll be more "Driveable" since they can burn the fuel better at a lower RPM with less boost than an IDI.

Hope this kinda makes sense?

[ste91]

Strange that I just spend half an hour on Darren's youtube, you in half the videos and then you post here lol.

Yeah that all makes sense, I think someone did try 300TDi nozzles (or it might have been 200TDi, not 100% sure) but didn't have very good results, a LOT of smoke from what I remember, that was on a near standard engine though. 10mm as standard is what I've heard too. Would upgrading to 11mm make much difference?

The usual upgrade for the later (VP30) models is to use the "SDi" injectors from the VP37 in the earlier ones.

So you've looked at the L series before then? Would be good if you/Darren got one as a project.

What would you suggest doing with the head, if anything?

[con67]

Nice post from Ruan, the L series mech pump has an 11mm pump head standard however, the camplate doesnt look very good though compared to other di plates I've seen and because its a left hooker not much is interchangeable from other makes.

[darrenjlobb]

The L series motor is one hell of a motor compared to an XUD, leave the pump, change out the nozzles / get them edm'ed and put a biggish VNT on the back, and you will have 200-250hp no problems at all....

The hardest part is finding nozzles of the right angle / orientation etc, but once you strip old ones down / understand whats going on, its fairly simple to find bigger oem alternatives available...

I once converted a VP pumped one of these to a VE because of an ECU failure, and was on stock turbo / nozzles, after a quick tweak it would outrun any xud any day of the week! Much easier to keep clean to DI FTW

[ste91]

Nice one Darren, I didn't know you'd played around with an L series before, no vids on your youtube channel?

Fuelling mods aside for a minute, what wastegated turbo would you recommend for a 170-180bhp setup?

There is a hybrid being developed at the minute, it uses mostly GT1752 parts, and a "secret" turbine housing (the guy making them wont reveal what engine the turbine housing is off so that other people don't take his idea), as this housing is a direct bolt on to our manifold and downpipe, very rare.