Modern cars - why I hate them

[THE_Liam]

Right, bit of a rant.

I've been saying for a while that I really dislike modern cars, and I think I've figured out exactly why...

First of all, complexity and the associated expense. Everything is computerized, so there are far too many things to break. DPF, DMF, swirl flaps, EGR, wheel speed sensors, traction control issues, limp modes, all common problems on new cars that cost the f*cking earth to fix and are completely impossibe for DIY people like us. Also, newer cars all have huge tyres, huge brakes, complex double wishbone suspension with shedloads of bushes, 8 different filters and 46835 sensors, so even service/wear and tear items break the bank.

Secondly, driver involvement. Electric power steering, overly soft suspension, driver aids, fly-by-wire throttles, silly flappy paddle gearboxes with no clutch pedal and active suspension all combine to prevent the driver having any real connection with the road. There's no feedback or feel, and every time you try to explore the limits the electronic nanny stops you! All in the name of "refinement"...

Thirdly, distractions. My mates new Focus has electric windows and AC, that's fine. It also has a DVD player and TV built in to the dash with a bluetooth-activated built in phone with voice commands. Who the f*ck needs that shit? I'm driving, I don't want to watch TV and phonecalls can wait until I'm not busy... Just more unnecessary weight...

Fourth and final, and this will surprise you. Modern cars have too much power. No, really, hear me out. Supercars have always had daft amounts of power that you can't use without dying or going to prison for the rest of your natural life, but now, so do Vauxhall Astras. 276bhp from the latest Astra VXR. I didn't enjoy driving the Skoda because I couldn't really use it's 200bhp except for a quick blast up to 70 on a dual carriageway. To me, the fun of fast driving is driving a car hard, feeling the limits of grip and putting my foot flat to the floor, really making the best of a twisty road. On the average british B-road, you'll struggle to get over 70mph without really risking life and limb. How much of that Astras power and grip can you really use? Very little, your not even scratching the surface. All the extra power, and therefore expense, is pointless....

My question is this. Would you rather hammer along a back road in a small hot hatch or RWD sports car with 100-150bhp, testing the limits of grip with a torsion bar beam axle, no traction control interference, lift off oversteer, sharp steering that lets you feel the road, while bouncing it off the limiter and racing up and down the gears, or would you rather use 1/10th of a Focus STs power while getting nowhere near it's grip limits in any bend, and all the while not being able to tell what the tyres are doing?

F*ck the 250bhp super hatches, give me a 205 GTI!

[Niall]

100% agreed.
My Kia was back in the garage at 700 miles on the clock (yes 700) and needed a new throttle pedal. Was hunting horrendously because of a bad pedal. For something that is essentially a plastic hinge on a variable resistor, how much do you reckon it cost to be fixed? £850. Two points there. firstly, modern cars are NOT more reliable and they are just more expensive. I would never own a new car and i know the government is trying to squeeze out these old polluting cars but they are such more fun!

[Ruan]

The biggest death of modern cars is the fact that they're too SERIOUS...

As said in Jakes thread, the LAST car to say "Rag the shit out of me, get the back end going wild, have fun!" was the 106 GTI, recently the Toyota GT86...

Everything is made so that ANYONE can drive the cars, there's no "hairy chested" mans car anymore... It's not acceptable to have a car now with heavy clutches, a clattery gearbox, poor tyre wear when driven hard...

Everything these days is ALL about HOW fast it will go round the Nurburgring, trackdays all that bullshit... Sadly you CANNOT do ANY of that on a public road, if you manage to get a new Astra VXR out of shape on a public road, you're either going to die, kill someone or have your license removed... In a 306, 106 or old RWD Sports Car you can get things out of shape, safely at LOW speeds. Cars these days have big wide tyres to pull Physics bending Gs through corners, eLSDs that allow you to stick it in harder, but past the edge of grip, they're into a world of the unknown, but thankfully the traction control has cut in LONG ago to stop you finding out how shit the car is past the limit.

Handling and Grip are two VERY different things... Grip is what the car is like before the limit, Handling is what the car is like AFTER the limit... No one has concentrated for YEARS on what they're like past the limit (the answer is usually a sea of understeer and numbness)... The 106 GTi, 306 and as said the GT86 are the only cars recently to have considered what a car SHOULD drive like for an enthusiast.

[samass]

I love my shit piece, slow as f*ck, broken nad. When chasing poodle and Jonny after the rr meet, I had to do so much correcting of the steering, as the lack of damping on the back send it sideways, a lot! Even tho I wasn't going any faster than 30 at the time. It was slow as f*ck, loud, I was absolutely hammering it and not really getting anywhere, bit it was the most fun I've ever had in a car...

[Niall]

That Ruan is why i dont think the GT86 will be a big seller unfortunately. Serious power is not needed on the road. I think that is what makes 306s fun. They are now powerful by any means but they are powerful enough to be fun and the gt86 is the same apparently but people just think "oooh the astra has almost 100bhp more, it will be much more fun" which is lies because as soon as you put your foot down, you will die because vauxhall cant design a car that can handle the power.

[Ruan]

Absolutely, the GT86 won't sell because on PAPER it's a RWD car with skinny tyres, won't go fast round a track, has not much power, 0-60 time is crap, it's not turbocharged... The advert can say how good it is round a corner, but people aren't interested in it, they'll take definable facts and figures any day over someone telling them how well it drives..

[Niall]

Tbh, ive had a relatively fast car before and it was good but only for one thing and that was surprising others and endorsing my licence with 3 points. The gti is much slower than my saab was but its so much more fun because of how it handles.

[rickye]

gotta agree, my civic was a great handling car, past the limit was easy to control and greaet fun for lift off over steer, was only a 2000 civic, but even at that the steering was way to light, it had some feed back but only after spending silly money on track spec coilovers

my brother seat leon tdi, unreal nice to drive, would happily drive anywhere in it, hit 60-70 n flick on cruise control, comfy, well equiped, everythings nice and light, fully auto windows, pulls well for a 100 brake, but i just dont enjoy driving it, id have my 10 year older dturbo anyday, sure some folk nearly need both legs for the clutch, it reeks the place out off boost(love it tbh), but its alot more fun to drive, more invloved

gotta see some peoples point, is nice to step into a car, start it and drive, none of this wondering whats gonna fall off, or if its gonna start

[kentiiboii]

Was looking at boras and golfs. But conpare to the 306 it was soulless. Which is why I have to explain to everyone everyday that I genuinely enjoy driving my shitty old French cars.

"German are well built and good quality"
IMO the 306 is one of the best built cars going. my hdi does everything I want it to!

Power(boooooost)
Mpg
Comfort(ish)
Handling
Looks

[ozonehostile]

Just got back from a trip upto birmingham, reminded myself just why i love the 306 so much. get off the motorway and onto the deserted b roads, made my journey 40 miles longer but i havnt had so much fun in a car for ages, just the simple pleasure of weaving corners together. so glad i bought another 306 instead of a laguna. best decision of the year

[THE_Liam]

Looks like I'm not the only one then! Glad you lot agree, I thought I was gonna get a lot of "f*ck off and buy an MGB then grandad"

[Rich306]

I won't buy anything newer because (like has already been said, i won't be able to work on it!
I do prefer my 306 and i'm glad i have one - even though i don't drive it atm

However, i may reconsider my options as the Peugeot 208 has come out on sale now :p And it looks quite nice! I do wonder whether it has the same handling buzz and excitement of the older cars.

[cpikey316_]

What they need to do, is make the cost of a 2nd car less!

Then you can have a new car for the grind to work, school run etc, and a fun car for the weekends!

Costs so much! Even if you swap insurance and keep one off the road, you're raped by an admin fee

[HDIkyle]

Said perfectly. I have said everytime some tells me to stop messing and buy a car. I don't want a modern car there all shit. I personally would not look to own a car newer than a 2000 reg for the simpe reason that's when everything goes wrong, the styling, electrics everything. I much prefer to have a gooi drive in her 1.0 saxo with no p/s or anything than even the estate with abs ect as it just feels like your going so much quicker even within the limit

[C.A.R.]

Modern cars are just boring.

They look boring - jellymoulds with different features, due to pedestrian safety and a lack of imagination from designers

They go fast - big, fat, modern rubber tyres which offer tremendous grip mated to a turbocharged engine

They don't handle the same - granted, they do go around corners quickly, but this is largely due to the modern tyres they have. Stick a set of modern tyres on an old car, like the summer I put sticky rubber on my naturally aspirated MX5 - instant boredom. It gripped and gripped and gripped - with no power to overcome it! So I put the scrubbed tyres on the back axle again after about a fortnight

I'm fed up with people asking me why I don't get a newer car, fact is, I bought my old French hatchback out of choice (shock horror!). I had £3,500 to spend, but spent considerably less and have a massive smile on my face (when everything works...)

[Toms306]

Right, bit of a rant.

I've been saying for a while that I really dislike modern cars, and I think I've figured out exactly why...

First of all, complexity and the associated expense. Everything is computerized, so there are far too many things to break. DPF, DMF, swirl flaps, EGR, wheel speed sensors, traction control issues, limp modes, all common problems on new cars that cost the f*cking earth to fix and are completely impossibe for DIY people like us. Also, newer cars all have huge tyres, huge brakes, complex double wishbone suspension with shedloads of bushes, 8 different filters and 46835 sensors, so even service/wear and tear items break the bank.

But surely you can see these things do have a benefit? And they're not nearly as complex as you might think! It's just sensors and actuators at the end of the day, the only complex part is the ECU's. Same as people really - you touch a hot oven, your hand senses it, your brain process the info, your arm actuates the pulling away motion. Its as simple as that.

The DPF is there for emmisions purposes, which HAS to be in new cars so they meet emmisions regs set by Europe, none of us can change that. Granted it's expensive when it fails, its one of few modern things that I don't like - but it has a purpose.

The DMF is 'nice' when it works, and serves a dual purpose to damp the engine vibrations (reducing engine wear theoretically) as well as reducing the noise inside the cabin. I know people that have changed to SMF's on new cars and have caused engine damage.

Swirl flaps give you a wider powerband, making a diesel drive a little more like a petrol - which again is what the majority of people want, the 'power' band in the HDi is terrible after you've experienced newer diesels. These are only controlled by a motor that pulls an arm, not exactly complex, and the only reason they break is because of bloody EGR sludge which is the other newer thing I can't stand.

EGR is again there for emmisions regs which we can't change. It does more damage than good in my opinion - and should be blanked/removed instantly on any car that has done a few miles. But again its not complex, they're actuated in different ways, but the common VAG way is just a vacuum pulling the plunger up - again really not complex.

Wheel speed sensors/ABS/TC are all linked, and Im sure I don't need to explain the funtion of those lol, but again, its all just sensors and actuators which can be swapped about, just a pain on old 306s etc where they rust into the hub.

And limp mode is a bloody good idea - if something goes slightly wrong in your XUD, you just turn the radio up and keep pushing it until a rod falls through the block. Granted if it happens without a fault then its annying, but its a bloody good safety feature tbh.

So which of those can't you change/fix yourself? The only one is topping up the DPF with Elloys fluid, the rest you could change yourself.

And the newer cars have bigger brakes....how is this a bad thing!? Yes they cost more, but I'd rather that than have 200bhp and say solid 247s like 106's have.

And the bigger tyres are for economy/emmisions again, which is what everyone wants these days as tax is done by emmisions, and obviously fuel costs a bomb these days. Wasn't an issue back when 306's were built.

Secondly, driver involvement. Electric power steering, overly soft suspension, driver aids, fly-by-wire throttles, silly flappy paddle gearboxes with no clutch pedal and active suspension all combine to prevent the driver having any real connection with the road. There's no feedback or feel, and every time you try to explore the limits the electronic nanny stops you! All in the name of "refinement"...

I don't like electric PAS, I agree with that one, however, think of elderly people or less strong people, shouldn't they be allowed to drive an 'easier' car?

Soft suspension is nice for cruising, most models come with a 'sports' suspension optin if you like a broken back lol.

FBW is the only way of controlling a common rail, so thats kinda useful, seeing as mechanical diesels don't meet emmisions regs. I dont have a problem with FBW though, as long as its weighted like the Golf one was.

Active suspension would be nice, again for comfort, and it'll probably come with a 'sports' option if you wanted a firmer ride.

I agree the ECU doesn't allow you 'everything' even under full throttle, but again thats for emmisions, something that we can't control, but personally I never have found it a problem.

Thirdly, distractions. My mates new Focus has electric windows and AC, that's fine. It also has a DVD player and TV built in to the dash with a bluetooth-activated built in phone with voice commands. Who the f*ck needs that shit? I'm driving, I don't want to watch TV and phonecalls can wait until I'm not busy... Just more unnecessary weight...

You don't take calls in the car I guess, nor do I. But people with company cars do all the time, they've gotta be on the phone all day organising things, sorting things etc. I expect Nialls C'eed has bluetooth handsfree stuff for his job. DVD players I agree are pointless because I don't even watch DVDs at home lol, but that doesn't mean everyone would agree. And TV's would be good, ever had to sit waiting for people, or in solid traffic? You've got a radio, why not a TV.

Fourth and final, and this will surprise you. Modern cars have too much power. No, really, hear me out. Supercars have always had daft amounts of power that you can't use without dying or going to prison for the rest of your natural life, but now, so do Vauxhall Astras. 276bhp from the latest Astra VXR. I didn't enjoy driving the Skoda because I couldn't really use it's 200bhp except for a quick blast up to 70 on a dual carriageway. To me, the fun of fast driving is driving a car hard, feeling the limits of grip and putting my foot flat to the floor, really making the best of a twisty road. On the average british B-road, you'll struggle to get over 70mph without really risking life and limb. How much of that Astras power and grip can you really use? Very little, your not even scratching the surface. All the extra power, and therefore expense, is pointless....

Well this I agree with, yes really. I'll use the Golf as an example, regardless of what you think of it, it also had an unnecessary amount of power, which was only used for overtaking badly on B roads or acelerating on slip roads because there wasn't anywhere else to use it, a few seconds at a time was epic power, but that was it, and Im not fussed about top speed at all, took the Golf to 135mph on the sat nav and it felt like 90mph, wasn't 'fun' - acceleration (torque) is fun, not speed. However, I find the HDi is the opposite, always on the loud pedal trying to find some power, so needs to be somewhere inbetween the two IMO, around 150bhp in a 1200kg car I reckon is about right. However the difference is, I was satisfied on cruise control at ~45 through the national limit in the Golf, in the HDi I'm pushing to 70ish (no mpg reader or cruise to slow me down) but becuase its loud and uncomfortable theres still no satisfaction there.

My question is this. Would you rather hammer along a back road in a small hot hatch or RWD sports car with 100-150bhp, testing the limits of grip with a torsion bar beam axle, no traction control interference, lift off oversteer, sharp steering that lets you feel the road, while bouncing it off the limiter and racing up and down the gears, or would you rather use 1/10th of a Focus STs power while getting nowhere near it's grip limits in any bend, and all the while not being able to tell what the tyres are doing?

F*ck the 250bhp super hatches, give me a 205 GTI!

For me....the ST. But this is exactly my point - we all have different opinions, and just because you (the minority usually) don't like something, doesn't mean that no-one else does. Some things serve a purpose, some are there to make driving easier/nicer for the majority that dont rag around everywhere and some are for government emmisions regulations. Nothing is actually 'pointless' in newer cars, even though it may seem like it. Don't forget that MOST people don't care about cars, i've been looking long and hard for a replacement for my HDi - and i'm finding that most newer cars still have piss poor performance, take the astra for example, most are 1.7diesels - thats 75/80bhp and a 13second 0-60! But its cheap to tax and gets 65mpg - and this must be what most people want now, they don't care about power, just something to get them around as cheap as possible. Most don't even seem bothered by spec, judging by the amount of cars that still lack a lot of things that meridians had 15 years ago.

[Ruan]

Tom, you're too boring.

People have been surviving with cars without all this wank for years with no issues... MANY people want it back...

You are the person that stops this because you "quite like" the refinement, the boringness, the lack of noise...

You aren't the person who gets a perfectly nice 306 GTi6, decides it's too expensive as a petrol, pulls it out, puts a Diesel in, rips out the back seats etc etc... You were quite happy with the Golf....

[C.A.R.]

Basically Tom, you're talking like a consumer and not a car enthusiast.

The pursuit of 'more' is what is ruining the modern car. A new Astra can't possibly have less features than the previous one, or the consumer won't be interested. So it gains more gadgets, which adds weight. So it gains more power, to overcome that weight.

Driving a car is becoming far easier, but is that really a good thing? I did fit bluetooth handsfree in my previous cars but won't bother again. I am a salesman too, but any phonecall whilst I'm driving can wait until I've arrived.

Also, please stop talking about your crusty old diesel VW like it was supersonic, it makes you sound a bit retarded.

[Ed Doe]

Tom, your VAG didn't have enough power.

Classic example of how far things have got; when I passed my test (not even that bloody long ago!) it was a basic requirement for the motorist to be able to parallel park. Now there are cars that do it all for you. If all cars had this and no one had to judge gaps for themselves, or work out how to park properly, would this improve our spatial awareness? Would this keep motorists sharp, and good at controlling their vehicle? No. It makes it too easy.

You make a point about old people not being able to drive if the steering is too heavy. Sorry, but if it's got to the point where you cannot operate a steering wheel in a stock 306, you just shouldn't be driving. No argument, you should have your license removed from you.

As Ruan has sortof pointed out, the car market has been driven to some extent by the fact that it's not socially acceptable to be into cars. The amount of my other mates who almost visibly recoil when I say I'm into cars is unreal! The art of driving a car properly is fast becoming extinct as a combination of the nanny state f*cking up all the good roads with speed cameras, and people not giving a shit about how they drive because "its only about getting from a to b". f*ck that, you should have an interest in cars if you are priviledged enough to be allowed on the roads. And cars should make people concentrate too. Sod all this ABS ESP bollocks, you don't need them. As Ruan has alluded to, they mask what is actually going on at the wheels of the car until it's WAY too late for you as a driver to take corrective action. It gives a false sense of security, that somehow everything will be ok and safe becuase the electrics will save you. Newsflash, you're driving a tonne and a bit of metal at high velocity, and you don't even know half of what is keeping you on the road.

My advice to the UK;

Strip all the safety crap out of the cars on the road today, turn off the speed cameras, wait for the pillocks who can't drive to kill themselves and chalk it all up to natural selection.

[THE_Liam]

Tom, your really not a car enthusiast or enthusiastic driver are you?

[procta]

i think it all changed in 2004, as everything from then onwards has gone propper computerized now.
you look at the moden day engine, it has sensors for sensors for sensors! none of them are not needed either!
pre 2000 engine had about 6 sensors or somthing, now you have practically double if not more!
a car that was made up to the early 2000 i recon is more easy to fix than some that is in today!

[Slam Wagon]

No one has mention the fact that if its harder to fix then you will take it back to the garage to get it done, and as its a newer car you will probably take it to the manufacturer to fix. This means alot more money for them and as everything is now harder to fix/ you need the right million dollar tool for the job they can then just charge even more for doing it.

[Arron]

Thing I hate is that start/stop malarky, this surely reduces the life of the starter motor and impacts MPG, how can this be an eco feature!!

[THE_Liam]

Thing I hate is that start/stop malarky, this surely reduces the life of the starter motor and impacts MPG, how can this be an eco feature!!

Imagine a traffic queue in 10 years, stuck behind 3-4 old French cars with stop-start...

*shudder*

[rickye]

Would likely only be a queue as it broke n wouldn't start the car again

More than likely would randomly play up like door looms, and doing 60 it wud randomly stop n start again

[ozonehostile]

I think anyone who is atall enthusiastic about driving should you should all go out and have a go in a lotus. That's about as close as I've ever come to pure driving enjoyment. No electronics bar the lights and windows, 150bhp and sv amazing chassis. Don't even think about missing having a radio either, the noise of an engine screaming away behind your head is the only noise you want to hear



Screw it, I'm saving up for another one, although the 306 is almost as good

[bingham123456]

Still think the best car iv ever owned woz my 74 beetle. No power steering. Anything over 70 mph and you had no brakes. The most complicated thing on it woz the original radio.

Its simple rewarding motoring. It cost verry little to run the parts are cheap. got a brand new engine 1300cc for £600 and spent 2hours takein the old one out and putting the new one in ( on my own with very basic tools)

It made you smile every time you drove it and the only time i broke down (the reason i had a new engine) woz because i hadnt put any oil in it for ages and it ran dry then locked up

I cant think of any car now that you can fix with very basic tools. You neew to buy all them stupid expensive tools to do simple jobs and if you take it to a garage you might aswell hand them your payslips for the next 5years.

Its not that i dont like/want a new car but i just think someone should make one for the people like us..... That like fixing cars.

But i can safely say thats not gunna happen.

[Toms306]

Tom, your really not a car enthusiast or enthusiastic driver are you?

No.

Hence my opinion on this being completely different to yours.


Cars and driving is the only thing that comes close to being something I like(d). But now, no, its A-B with as much shit in the back as I can fit. Other people on the road and police and speed cameras ruin driving and I've lost any sort of enjoyment from it, last car I really enjoyed was the 1.8 believe it or not. But then again - since then I've had to 'put up with' cars I dont really like, but own for thier mpg so maybe that has something to do with it.

[Arron]

Its definitely a way of charging more for the car. If you buy a corsa new and want an ashtray its a £250 extra!! But yet all these driver aids that are unnecessary are usually standard.

[Toms306]

Its not that i dont like/want a new car but i just think someone should make one for the people like us..... That like fixing cars.

Playing devils advocate here - but why should we be allowed to fix our cars? You wouldn't go and butcher a gas boiler or rewire your house. Yet its legal for any retard to fix their car and more importantly, things like brakes - surely brakes failing at 70mph on a packed motorway will cause more deaths than one persons house burning down.

Just something to think about anyway.