Exhaust Manifold.

[Poodle]

Im not aiming to reduce the running pressure of the cr system, just to increase its capacity for flow. Excluding issues with sourcing info, injectors themselves are fairly easy to upgrade, or at least the nozzles are. Pumps, however...

We are restricted in pump choices because the only gen 1 pumps that fit these engines without serious mods is an r70, our standard pumps are r65, so that's not much of an upgrade. That leaves two choices: mod the pump for more flow or completely rebild one to a custom spec. I may well be wrong, but to me the former looks the easier option. If we're going to rebuild a pump we may as well go straight for a 2k bar gen 3 pump with gen 1 controls and run as much rail pressure as we like, do you see what i'm getting at?

And I see your point about the bmw engines, but i'm more interested in seeing what I can do with what we've got. Besides, if I was going to have a bmw engine i'd keep it in the bmw, rwd ftw.

[darrenjlobb]

You can make any pump in the world fit...its just a rotating shaft, that needs a pulley attaching to it... even more so with CR given you dont even need to time it, its no different to me bolting a VE onto a VP44 pumped audi etc...infact for CR, you could just run a shorter cambelt and run the cr pump off the aux belt if you really felt the need / a second CR pump or whatever...

The whole set your goal and buy to suit thing i guess i just dont get, do people really "set a goal and aim for it" with diesel tuning? because even if the did, surely once they did it, they would just set a new goal...for me tuning is tuning, and its a never ending thing...so i always buy with future potential where possible, but i guess that differs.

[Jonny81191]

That's an interesting shout Darren, something you've done enough times, but I've never even considered

[darrenjlobb]

That's an interesting shout Darren, something you've done enough times, but I've never even considered

Just gotta think outside the box, following the routes everyone else has followed is generally a fail, or else there would already be 350whp hdi's, and there isnt, so clearly something new needs trying

The approach i generally have these days is if i have idea, ill go ahead and do it, even if at first it seems impossible, if you go at these things one step at a time / spend time getting each step totally as your happy with, and then move on, you can do anything, or pretty much anyway, and then at the end you end up with something 1 off / hopefully epic, sometimes its a fail, but i normally bodge it first time on a field car or something to make sure its got potential!!

[Mr Whippy]

You can make any pump in the world fit...its just a rotating shaft, that needs a pulley attaching to it... even more so with CR given you dont even need to time it, its no different to me bolting a VE onto a VP44 pumped audi etc...infact for CR, you could just run a shorter cambelt and run the cr pump off the aux belt if you really felt the need / a second CR pump or whatever...

The whole set your goal and buy to suit thing i guess i just dont get, do people really "set a goal and aim for it" with diesel tuning? because even if the did, surely once they did it, they would just set a new goal...for me tuning is tuning, and its a never ending thing...so i always buy with future potential where possible, but i guess that differs.

Agree on the former, how about running two pumps, and splitting the rail in two?

A pump serving a pair of injectors only? Take both rail pressure sensor signals, combine, and then re-map to suit... might not be perfect if one pump is lazier than the other but hey ho... not sure about the relief valve, I guess since it's duty cycle based the signal can operate two valves appropriately. I *think* that would work straight off if you could get the mechanicals to work. Hmmm...


As per the second part, well when I decided to FMIC and tune my car not many people were really doing FMIC mapping and giving honest/reliable information.

FMIC's were fairly common, but what they could be remapped to and how was still all just a bit unknown. Pro tuners were charging £300-500 and tinkering with boost maps (haha), while others were fitting tuning boxes to boost rail pressure for a bit more IQ, at a cost of £300 on top of the remap which was also £300... and still they only made 150bhp!

So I set my goal. Tune a standard HDi to a reasonable limit, which I did, and I tuned the exhaust etc.
Then FMIC it and tune that to the reasonable limit, which I did and got a pretty good result.

The next steps for me were economically un-viable against just buying a faster car to start with. Fundamentals such as short gearing, lack of a differential, and need to buy a hybrid turbo for the next stage meant at least £1500 to get me to the next step and it would increasingly be money down the drain.


There are different mind sets. It's nice to think everyone is happy to just spend money they will never see again on a chance, see what happens as they go along...
But there are people out there who want to tune cars and know what they'll get for a certain spend. They don't want to find themselves £3k down on mods a few years later and suddenly realise they could have just run a better car to start with.


Lets be very realistic. In the five or six years I've been remapping these cars I think only about 10% of customers have had open-ended projects that didn't have a start/end (they may have re-set a new goal after the current one was achieved)... and of that 10% probably 5% never had a good outcome because of that lack of clarity of what they wanted to achieve.

Modding beyond a certain point (the usual stuff basically) is as much about planning as it is budget. Just spending money on exotic components does NOT guarantee a good final outcome

Yes if you are clued up like you are, then it's a bit easier, but you are in the very very small minority...

Dave

[darrenjlobb]

Dont really see much advantage of spltiting the rail, id rather have one COMMON rail, given this is half the point of CR lol...you can have as many pumps feeding it as you need to provide flow up top, just double up on relief if you cant keep pressure down off the power, no big deal.

I guess theres different kinds of people, there tuners, and then theres people who just want to go fast lol.... the latter having nothing to do with why i do what I do, altho i do look foward to one day finally getting round to giving the pod a visit with a car that runs!

[Mr Whippy]

Oh yeah, haha... hmmm. I think I did the splitting so you could have the car run two relief valves using standard calibration.

Without doing some scribbly maths I can't be sure but yes both feeding a common rail should work, but you probably would have to do something about relief valves...

As with lots of things, usually making them a bit bigger and run a bit faster is better than just doing one a lot more, so the R70 running a smaller pulley might actually give you the overhead you need... rpm dependent etc. If you want big IQ's at 6000rpm then you might struggle with heat etc

If you could live without PAS then you could fit another pump there easily... oooor, move PAS down to where AC was, then run another R70 at the PAS location...

Hmmm

Dave

[darrenjlobb]

Running two pumps is not issue, the cummins boys have been doing this for years,

There plenty of room for another pump without sacking anything off, i managed to fit a supercharger in no problems with pas and alternator, so a little CR pump shouldnt be any big deal.

I think one common rail is just a better idea, that way u dont have ot worry about pressures changing / if a pump fails in theory it will still run!

tonnes and tonnes of potential, im just gagging to give it a go, but edc15 just sucks

[Midnightclub]

If you could live without PAS then you could fit another pump there easily... oooor, move PAS down to where AC was, then run another R70 at the PAS location...

Hmmm

Dave

Or... sack off the PAS pump and run a saxo electric PAS pump?

[Mr Whippy]

No idea.

Like Darren said it's just a case of making stuff fit however you want really.

I wouldn't let EDC15C2 put you off though Darren, there is a lot to learn, but if you finally go for after-market CR injection a lot of the learning will cross-over I think.

In theory running two pumps is easy from an ECU POV, and assuming you can run the same PWM signal to the relief valves then it should just be a matter of recalibrating that control map to suit twice the flow. I think it's a PID controller so in theory it'll work, but it might just over/undershoot or oscillate if the map isn't 'about right'
As you said, it's just a shaft spinning in a pump, so adding a 2nd pump with it's own relief valve isn't anything too complicated. I guess the only possibly issue is any asymmetric mechanical differences between pumps/relief valves, so I'd go for new/re-con units to assure they both run as similarly as possible.

You'd certainly need BIG injectors to make the most of that though!


I think the problem will always be that as soon as you go away from something another road car has used with similar remapped flow rates/pressures to what you want, that also has the right pattern, then you are well and truly into the land of DIY calibration from the ground up.

That is even possible if you use some initiative. Run a HP system (possibly on a 1.9Td to run the pump ), run the ECU etc on a bench, feed in signals using pots etc to give the sensors the appropriate signals.

Then simply fill up a known volume at a known rpm and energisation times of injectors, divvy it out and get the IQ... fill up your table.


Biggest issue actually, thinking about it, is recalibrating all your tables out. Hmmm...

Dave

[Ruan]

No need to twin pump, just stick on a CP3 pump, they're good for 400whp and 500wtq in their stock application! I'd be 99% with a bit of thunking you could get it.on the cambelt.. Even if you sack off the OEM pump on the cambelt, run it like an 8v petrol or worst case get a bracket made up with a bearing in that can hold the stock pulley so you can use the OEM cambelt system... Rig up a bracket just like the Supercharged GTi boys do that'll hold the pump, if people want I'd be more than happy to try and help with CADing up a bracket to hold a pump... You can then set the drive speed as required on whatever pulley, people often overdrive the CP3s, but at least you can underdrive it if you start having issues with the FPR not being able to cope...

So much potential!

They're also MUCH more robust seemingly than the CP1s..

[Mr Whippy]

I take it the CP3 is fitted with an appropriate relief valve that operates on a duty cycle type map?

Assuming it is as that is what makes sense, then again that would be easy enough to make work with a few days tinkering.

All these things are good ideas, but as I was getting at earlier, it's REALLY important they are done in isolation, possibly even at standard power/mappings where you are guaranteed good calibration of all the maps against each other, then you can tune that control map for the relief valve perfectly, put a line under it, and call it a job done.
Mapping gets much easier down the line then if you can say for certain that the control map is right and you can just apply it to any CP3 modded car, because you took the time to get it perfect under perfect isolated conditions. A good reason why pioneer users should do things slowly to help the person doing the mapping out, even if they are doing the mapping DIY it'd be very sensible to isolate a pump no one has used before as the only mod and get it right

If you plan on running big injectors then tweaking the relief valve mappings beyond the standard ~ 1500bar is pointless as you won't want to go that high anyway, so that also makes life easy within the 'range' of the standard EDC15C2 mappings for the HDi90 (ie, many maps end at 1350-1500bar range)


Only problem then is extending IQ range out and duration calibration maps... a big task no doubt, but one you could get through if you work sensibly through checking at each point via PP2000 and OBD logging etc.

Dave

[Poodle]

You can make any pump in the world fit...its just a rotating shaft, that needs a pulley attaching to it... even more so with CR given you dont even need to time it, its no different to me bolting a VE onto a VP44 pumped audi etc...

Now theres an idea that bears thinking about. I figure the main issue then would be changing signals and mapping needed for the fpr....

Being able to use a cp3 pump would open up a whole new world of tuning opportunities for this engine, exciting thought...

[darrenjlobb]

Only issue with running the HP pump purely from the aux belt Ruan would be an aux belt failure would mean your car dies, but no big deal haha, but id rather the cambelt was driving at least one of the pumps, they rob a fair bit of power!

[Mr Whippy]

How much is a CP3 generally going for in good nick? A quick google and I see prices from £250 > £1250 haha!

I think if you were going for CP3 then it'd only make sense with some appropriate injector tips so it'd be sensible to see them as a bundled pair of mods... if you are spending the money you may as well get something for 300bhp potential at ~ 1350-1500bar at top-end of the power curve. That then nicely covers off anything from 200-300bhp pretty much.

If you can spec a pair of mods like that and get them both set up right on one car, investing that time to do so, then it'd make life a lot easier for others to the point it'd make sense to copy that config because the calibration/setup work for the ECU had been done already!


Still a mega task though haha. How much would a fully re-built HDi engine cost with super strong internals that won't fall out at 5000rpm/300bhp?

If you are thinking you need a big fat VNT turbo, a big pump, big injectors, and a reworked engine, that is gonna be erring on £2,000 right away I'd guess, if not £2,500?

Probably worth thinking about a better gearbox/diff combo too. Hmmm...

Dave

[Jonny81191]

It's becoming extremely tempting to use a HDi in the hillclimber...

[darrenjlobb]

It's becoming extremely tempting to use a HDi in the hillclimber...

IMO that would be a huge mistake....

If it wasnt for the fact keeping a p pump clean / hard tuned ve clean, id not ever consider common rail tbh, for power / track etc you cant go wrong with a mech pump as far as im convcerned, cheap, reliable, and offensive..which is what you want in a track car....

[Jonny81191]

Don't worry darren, it's gonna stay XUD.. For the time being anyway. At least 2 seasons of XUD win

[Poodle]

Been sat in the bath thinking on this topic for the last hour lol, would continue the train of thought if i may.

We've established mechanical supply solutions, but mapping has been somewhat ignored. Bigger tips and readily available rail flow and pressure will provide opportunities we can exploit all the more with a little tweaking. If I understand correctly, half the issue with revs is that injecting the fuel quickly enough becomes an issue, especially with the pre-injection reducing our window. With greater capacity for flow this issue is lessened, but it would seem wrong to ignore it altogether/consider it dealt with.

Two things occurred to me in quick succession... The first thought was a slightly increased limit - 5500-6000rpm maybe - would be more beneficial on bigger nozzles than it would on standard, while being easier to stay within safe limits on injection timing and duration. Secondly, i understand pre-injection could be removed from the mapping, which would give us more scope for the main injection duration at the expense of a little comfort. However, i don't see why we can't have the best of both worlds.... Is there any reason we couldn't leave the pre-injection map in place for low-end drivability and comfort, but map in a cut-off at say 3500rpm? I would assume the corresponding increase in main injection duration would need to be ramped to avoid causing a boost- and hence torque-spike, but it should allow a lot more fuel to be injected at higher revs i think...?

Another random thought; would it be possible to map in a very late post-injection at ~2000rpm to act as anti-lag...?

Think it would be pretty fun to drive too, turbo boost from ~2k, then increased power again from 3.5k. Going to get flamed for saying it, but almost like a turbo'd v-tec...

Seems a bit of a wild theory, but after thinking for a bit i really can't see why either option wouldn't be possible, anyone care to blow holes in it?

[toseland]

resurrection.... seems poignant now, seeing as all the other things..

i want 300bhp

oh and btw alex... "like a turbo'd v-tec" ......!

[JTaylor2005]

There is a lot of interesting stuff in here. Learned quite a lot tbf. What happened to Mr Whippy these days?