Clutch for stage 2?

[Slam Wagon]

Ok so getting all the bits ready for stage 2 before i remap it. So..

Wheres the best place to buy from and what do people recomend?
I did try the search but couldnt find any specific recomendations for hdis. Im pretty clueless when it comes to this as im new to it so may have some dumb questions. Dont think i want to go paddle though as ive been told it will be too on off and as its my daily i want to keep it easy to drive but something to handle the extra power trouble free (as much as a peugeot can be)

Cheers guys n gals

[Eeyore]

isnt there one from Euro Car parts which is like £30 more than the standard one?

[Poodle]

The only ones i know of that have proved they can handle the power without dying relatively quickly are all paddle clutches. Other people who own them maintain the juddering isn't that bad if you have clutch control, although i wouldn't like to comment either way as i haven't driven or ridden in one myself.

Failing that a new valeo is meant to be able to handle it if treated with respect - no racing starts, no deliberate clutch slip, no second gear starts, etc - and where's the fun in that.

Last option would be to get a reduced torque map, but as Dum-dum said, having the hp and not the torque on a tuned diesel would be a lot like taking two birds home and only shagging one of them.

[neilz85]

i`ve read that the DT conversion is a good one. The hdi is a pull type clutch, the DT is a push and handles it better and has more options of clutch types - you can have a `6 type(i think).
you`ll need `6 Flywheel, DT clutch, arm and bracket. and one or 2 other little bits

[ANTB1986]

Can you not use a NEW standard clutch? If in daily use and don't boot it as much.

[Birk]

I did a gti6 swap on mine and it's showing signs of slipping on my stage 2

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A paddle plate will help, but it's the cover that needs uprating aswell, it need more clamping load to hold the torque.

[Poodle]

A couple of people with the dt conversion have reported issues with slipping less than 10k miles in.

[Jonny81191]

The DT conversion on mine has no issues anymore, but when I first bought it from Dum-Dum, it was tragic!

And yes, I drive it properly

[Mr Whippy]

It all depends how you map it (how hard you let the torque come in), and how high you let the torque get too.

A good new OEM clutch like LUK or Valeo will take 250lbft ok if you don't abuse it.

My Sachs paddle took 285-290lbft fine for years on the other hand, and it had me driving it, so it got a lot of abuse/hard driving as I developed my mega torque mapping on that clutch
They are juddery though. I didn't do much urban work so I felt it was ok but as soon as I got stuck in traffic I was kinda hating it... so if you do a stoppy/starty commute or anything I think it has a good chance of sending you mad


But as said, they are for all intents and purposes not that much slower on the road with 250lbft and a new OEM clutch driven sensibly will last years. It doesn't have the kick of the high torque maps no, but that is ultimately what drains your wallet, that extra nipple of torque between 2000-2400rpm hehe.

Dave

[ANTB1986]

How long would a new standard clutch last for if you didn't abuse it?

[Midnightclub]

We put a brand new standard valeo in our HDi october last year and it's been running 270 lb ft since... never had any signs of slippage so far

[Mr Whippy]

A good LuK or Valeo should last years with 250lbft if you don't abuse it.

I know that an LuK can start to show signs of slippage around 275lbft or so after a year of driving, but only very slight on motorways in 5th or up long hills etc, where you often ride right through peak torque for a long time.

I only know a few cases where people have run big torque on standard clutches... the cost isn't really so bad if you can do 2 years on an OEM clutch driving it however you like at 275lbft or so.
The big issue is the time/labour swapping it each time which is like a nightmare job and if you pay someone else to do it they charge you nicely for it!

Imo Valeo is probably better than LuK, so if you are happy to run ~ 250lbft and not abuse it, it should last years.


Midnightclub, it's good to see your using a Valeo and doing ok on it with that much torque. It just shows how good the OEM stuff is really. Look after a clutch and they last for years. Heel and toe downshifts, don't drag the clutch when moving the car around at low speed or at hill-starts etc.

The only reason I went for the Sachs paddle in the end was that I wanted to be able to tune till the turbo and engine injection wouldn't go any further and not be limited by the clutch... in the end I'd probably just go OEM clutch with a slightly upgraded pressure plate if possible... OEM clutch is light enough to allow another 20% weight/clamping force which should make an OEM a safe bet for use/abuse at 250lbft for years and years I would think... hmmm...

Dave

[Midnightclub]

Oh definitely, It was always driven nicely when i had it and tried not to ride the peak torque for too long, especially in the higher gears.. I can't see any reason why they would start to go quickly unless you're not having any sort of mechanical sympathy

[lolsteve]

Mr Whippy I remembered this from the other forum

Custom brakes of Sheffield specialise in relining brakes and clutches they can put an uprated material on your clutch plate, usually costs around £80, they even had it posted same day. Brake & Clutch Relining Specialist Sheffield

so if you was to uprate a standard clutch do you think the standard system would provide the needed clamping force to hold a full fat map?

[Mr Whippy]

Not sure on uprated materials...

I guess if they can give you some specific numbers on the friction coefficient before/after then you might get some clues as to how good it might be.

I think the best combo is always gonna be a bit more clamping force and a bit more friction coefficient, so you kinda get a big boost from two subtle changes that will keep it feeling as OEM as possible.

I think the main issue is to get more clutch friction coefficient with the same clamping force means the materials get quiet exotic like brake discs/pads, so they might not be as good when cold, they might have a shorter life, they might make a lot of noise in operation, etc etc etc...
So you might have a clutch that squeaks a lot during engagement, slips when cold a bit, and might have a more aggressive bite point (more towards what a paddle clutch is like but possibly worse if it's a full face material jobby)

Also remember that due to the pressure plate springs the clutch force increases over the first 1/3rd of wear, ish, and then subsides over the remaining 2/3rds... lots of upgraded clutches simply have less material at first so they start off in the sweet spot of the spring force on the pressure plate...
What you really need is a pressure plate that has stronger springs full stop, and a slightly higher spec friction material.

I bet the latter is what the Berlingo Sachs kit is, just a heavier duty pressure plate and slightly heavier duty friction material.

Hmmm

Dave

[Just Sean]

Ive got a helix 4paddleclutch with uprated cover on its way for mine.

Anyone had experience with this before?

[Midnightclub]

Is it a sprung or unsprung clutch sean?

[Just Sean]

Is it a sprung or unsprung clutch sean?

Sprung

[Ruan]

My DT clutch has lasted for a surprising amount of miles - I can't work it out exactly, but it's got to be over 30k miles at 300+lb.ft... It was slipping towards the end, but it's not overly surprising... The friction is absolutely fine, it's just the clamping force on it just isn't enough to hold it, more clamp and it'd grip fine...

IMHO just a slightly uprated pressure plate would make them hold on HDis - people should try the S16 clutch when they do it, it's a bit heavier than a standard DT clutch.

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Is it a sprung or unsprung clutch sean?

Sprung

IMHO return it for an unsprung - the springs ALWAYS break since the torque is so high at such a low RPM - at 2900rpm which is probably where peak torque is, it's like smacking the clutch springs 100 times a second with 125kg on the end of a 1ft bar...

You can understand why they break...

[Midnightclub]

^^ For that reason exactly!

[Just Sean]

Im getting helix to replate it for me, so i should get them to make it unsprung?

Glad i asked now!

[Ruan]

If it's sprung now, you can't make it unsprung, that's an integral part of the plates design, it'll require a new plate.

[Just Sean]

Ill see what helix can do. Cheers.

[Mr Whippy]

My Sachs was sprung and took lots of abuse in my ownership with ~ 285lbft with a standard Valeo pressure plate. That peak torque was coming in at 2000rpm or so in 5th too.

I thought my Sachs was juddery, so a four paddle *unsprung* clutch is going to be pretty much unusable in traffic...

You also have to consider that having a LOT of torque without any kind of transmission damping could result in more load/damage to the drivetrain further down. Just watching my HDi with Sachs four paddle sprung plate moving around at low speed (parking etc) and how the wheel wobbled as the clutch was clutching/de-clutching made you wonder.

That is the exact reason modern diesels have DMF or stall mapped in for low rpm operation, to protect the drivetrain from the low-frequency vibrations at high torque that are possible...


That is all just my 2p... perhaps some paddle plates are less aggressive on the material and judder less, but going on what I've read, unsprung plates are as bad again as sprung plates vs OEM clutches for judder, so I'd deem it not ideal for road use!?


Hmmm

Dave

[Ruan]

Hnmm, I've used Darren's clutch which is just a 4 paddle unsprung job and it's REALLY not that bad... Once it's warm it's fine, it feels like just a bitey standard clutch, it's a bit unforgiving when it's first started...

But the main thing is just to use a few more revs than you normally would, but just be wary it's a performance clutch - they're VERY easy to overheat... As long as you don't literally do it at 3k rpm round the carpark, you'll be fine...

I'm going 4 paddle unsprung next time and it will probably be fine... Just be wary of the fact and make sure you DON'T uprate the pressure plate, when you uprate the pressure plate is when they become horrible, heavy and bitey is just a horrible combo... I can cope with a heavy clutch or a bitey clutch, just not together.

[Poodle]

Sprung should be fine as long as you don't intend to clutch-kick it or do second-gear racing starts on a regular basis, it's the abuse that rapes the springs, hence why Dum-dum's died so quick.