Full fat Stage 3 setup

[Piggy]

Just so much more efficient bash.

I'm honestly excited about each new generation of turbo!

[Ruan]

The rate that turbocharging technology has come on in the last few years is unreal, with faster and faster computers to simulate them. A GTC1244VZK will now do 200hp!

[ADV_93]

Stage 3 HDi is epic territory.

From experience.

[welshpug]

just think if you started with a HDI 163 where you'd get

[JTaylor2005]

Do you think the engine would even be close to what our HDI's are haha? I bet nothing is the same now.

[toseland]

my current setup is as follows

Old gated, IHI-RHF5
2.5inch stainless into 2.25decat into a 2.0inch tail and backbox
running stable 24psi
GRS motorsport frontmount intercooler and 2inch piping..
the manifold is ported, and the exit matched to the hotside turbo inlet size and it's sorted.

its remapped by hdi-steve and its f*cking quick..

as i am sure jonny will suggest a 3inch outlet would be better for the hotside but i went with 2.5 for sound.. and it sounds LOVELY!,

---

i should point out that this map is using the STOCK 1300bar rail pressure sensor, and R70 pump..

i am led to believe that having these (if i remember the conversation correctly) improves the ability to refine the injection timings (more options) and duration. leaving a cleaner map.

i will be getting them eventually (just not yet) and then speaking nicely to steve as well

but this just goes to show that they are not an absolute requirement for a stage 3

[Jonny81191]

my current setup is as follows

Old gated, IHI-RHF5
2.5inch stainless into 2.25decat into a 2.0inch tail and backbox
running stable 24psi
GRS motorsport frontmount intercooler and 2inch piping..
the manifold is ported, and the exit matched to the hotside turbo inlet size and it's sorted.

its remapped by hdi-steve and its f*cking quick..

as i am sure jonny will suggest a 3inch outlet would be better for the hotside but i went with 2.5 for sound.. and it sounds LOVELY!,

---

i should point out that this map is using the STOCK 1300bar rail pressure sensor, and R70 pump..

i am led to believe that having these (if i remember the conversation correctly) improves the ability to refine the injection timings (more options) and duration.  leaving a cleaner map.

i will be getting them eventually (just not yet) and then speaking nicely to steve as well

but this just goes to show that they are not an absolute requirement for a stage 3

I'm not sure 3" would be best, but a 2.75" downpipe would probably be better for flow.

Also, stock sensor is 1600BAR.

As Ruan says though, these will make good power if mapped properly on a healthy stock injection system with a decent exhaust and intercooler setup, and a  bigger turbocharger (choice of turbo will obviously affect driveability/power band). 

Once you have that sort of setup, start looking to improve. Work with the mapper, iron out faults as you increase the power and you'll find yourself with a very quick car.

[HDi--Power]

my current setup is as follows

Old gated, IHI-RHF5
2.5inch stainless into 2.25decat into a 2.0inch tail and backbox
running stable 24psi
GRS motorsport frontmount intercooler and 2inch piping..
the manifold is ported, and the exit matched to the hotside turbo inlet size and it's sorted.

its remapped by hdi-steve and its f*cking quick..

as i am sure jonny will suggest a 3inch outlet would be better for the hotside but i went with 2.5 for sound.. and it sounds LOVELY!,

---

i should point out that this map is using the STOCK 1300bar rail pressure sensor, and R70 pump..

i am led to believe that having these (if i remember the conversation correctly) improves the ability to refine the injection timings (more options) and duration.  leaving a cleaner map.

i will be getting them eventually (just not yet) and then speaking nicely to steve as well

but this just goes to show that they are not an absolute requirement for a stage 3

I'm not sure 3" would be best, but a 2.75" downpipe would probably be better for flow.

Also, stock sensor is 1500BAR.

As Ruan says though, these will make good power if mapped properly on a healthy stock injection system with a decent exhaust and intercooler setup, and a  bigger turbocharger (choice of turbo will obviously affect driveability/power band). 

Once you have that sort of setup, start looking to improve. Work with the mapper, iron out faults as you increase the power and you'll find yourself with a very quick car.

fixed that for you

[Jonny81191]

fixed that for you

Thanks

[Ruan]

just think if you started with a HDI 163 where you'd get

Tbh, if you had same size injectors and turbo on any 2.0 16v, I'd say you'd be at almost exactly the same power level... The newer 163s are mostly about changes to the DPF system and newer turbo tech rather than improvements elsewhere...

They run even higher pressure, Piezo injectors which are just a disaster anyway in terms of longevity... The 136 engine is the one I'd go for, very simple really and can get versions without DPFs, shame it has the Siemens CR system...

[Alan_M]

With all this talk of stage 3, surely you'll be limited by the torque the gearbox can handle?

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that you'll be pushing your luck when nudging 300ib.ft of torque. Although, I'm not sure what power a stage 3 will kick out, a limited stage 2 (I'm about to go to with this - Still on a standard, but new, clutch) is 250ib.ft so won't be far away from 300 with a full fat stage 3.

[Anton]

Good shout...not sure what they can handle but ZX has been running well over 300lbft for a long time. Both the Xud and Hdi boxes have been fine but he killed a 6 box in no time at all. Last dyno was 360ish lbft

[Poodle]

They seem to be fine if you don't drive it like a twunt tbh.

[Midnightclub]

I think it's mainly down to torque delivery more than anything else.. if it's nothing nothing nothing boom 300 lb/ft it probably isn't going to like it

[Ruan]

If you sit on the motorway and just plonk your foot to the carpet every time you need to accelerate in 5th with a map that produces a shitload of torque, then you're probably going to either slip the clutch or pull the teeth off 5th - just gotta be wary of it - this is why I'm an advocate of modern, variable geometry turbochargers, which yes can spool at very low RPM, but you don't HAVE to feed it the fuel, you can create the torque delivery how you want it, but on transient changes it's still instantaneous, no waiting - something you can't do with bigger, fixed geometry turbos.

[toseland]

mine only slips in 4th and 5th now if i really mat it before i come onto boost..

still havent fitted the paddle clutch i have, will get around to that and hten see what else needs to be done!

[ADV_93]

The 183hp Volvo D5 turbo isn't bad - the GTB2056VLK - very popular option for around 200hp. Doesn't mind high pressure for if you've not a ported head, water cooled, will do 230hp.

The new 2060VKLRs from the Mercedes Bluetecs are unreal though...

If you're going for something absolutely state of the art, the GTD1752VRK will be insane.

Word of warning with a 2060VLKR, DON'T get one rebuilt. Get one new...

[Poodle]

Care to elaborate?

[dashmader]

going for a stage 3 hdi with a 16v head and a good vnt turbo i think is the way to go.

from my own experience the 16v head breads much better at high rpm and no loss at all on low end

just stick a 2.2 16V hdi head on top of a rhy block with RHR/RHK pistons and rods with the 2.2 hdi injectors and the correct nozzle angle for the siemens managed pistons and its done. all thing bolt on nicely and it saves much trouble

[Ruan]

The 183hp Volvo D5 turbo isn't bad - the GTB2056VLK - very popular option for around 200hp. Doesn't mind high pressure for if you've not a ported head, water cooled, will do 230hp.

The new 2060VKLRs from the Mercedes Bluetecs are unreal though...

If you're going for something absolutely state of the art, the GTD1752VRK will be insane.

Word of warning with a 2060VLKR, DON'T get one rebuilt. Get one new...

They use ceramic ball bearings - I assume you're maybe referring to the fact they're not as good as the OE Garrett units which they won't supply to the aftermarket? Seen a few fail? I'd be interested to know...

[ADV_93]

The 183hp Volvo D5 turbo isn't bad - the GTB2056VLK - very popular option for around 200hp. Doesn't mind high pressure for if you've not a ported head, water cooled, will do 230hp.

The new 2060VKLRs from the Mercedes Bluetecs are unreal though...

If you're going for something absolutely state of the art, the GTD1752VRK will be insane.

Word of warning with a 2060VLKR, DON'T get one rebuilt. Get one new...

They use ceramic ball bearings - I assume you're maybe referring to the fact they're not as good as the OE Garrett units which they won't supply to the aftermarket? Seen a few fail? I'd be interested to know...

I've done a fair few turbo changes on the 642s and from experience we've had customers getting these turbos rebuilt for them to pop again soon. Then stuck a brand new one on and no problems whatsoever. I'm not sure myself what causes this but it does happen. They are an epic turbo though and a mapped 350 CDi pulls like a train

[dr_jekyll]

Just had a good read through this post as now going stage 3 myself (still collecting parts) the setup im aiming for seems abit simpler but it will obvs have its draw backs.
Setup im aiming for is as follows:
•r70 fuel pump
•Drive torque stage 3, 5 paddle clutch
•3" twinpass intercooler to 2.25" piping
•Egr delete
•406 manifold with adapter plate
•gt2052s
•1.6 hdi fps
•Aircon delete
•Pas delete
•Straight through exhaust
•Powerflow back box
•C5 bottom pipe
•70mm intake
•Mbc
•K&N air filter
•Lynx engineering crank pulley
•thermostatic oil cooler
•Stage 3

Now as discussed egt's are going to be a huge problem. For the first initiall setup im just simply gonna use a 406 mani (give a little more clearance for turbo), an adapter ported to the mani for the turbo and down pipe thats going to end up looking like frakensteins monster (once ive got a working downpipe it will be re-done in stainless in a larger bore).
Once the setups running if the egt's are too high, which pretty sure they will be i will have a custom mani made to try and free up flow.

Reason ive stayed actuation and not gone vnt is for a couple of things.
1. Honestly i dont understand how vnt works.
2. I like to keep things as simple as poss to try reduce problems.
With the inlet i looked at several options. First thoughts were to adapt the stock, luckily for me my mates gave me a good slap so now looking at either running silicone and tubing or running this slinky stuff made by ash. The ash stuff seems the easier option but still to decide. What ever happens i do intend to try run the intake in the same stock position .

Ok so heres some usefull info on maps ive been looking at:
•pro steve map thats initially "going" to make 190bhp and x amount of torque. This is going to be run by my friend but this is an early stage map to yet be tweaked.
•Jammapic with this setup believes he can make 200bhp and around 320/330lbft, he's now become my first choice. Payed for the map and currently awaiting it.
•whippy, ive used him with all of my other maps and he's never failed to deliver for me! Ive gone for another mapper just to see what they can offer but have still been in close talks with him about my setup. I emailed him the other day about my setup im aiming to run and this was the feedback i recieved.

-------------------------
Hi Justin,

I'm more than happy to take a look at remapping the final set up for you.

It looks like you've gone with the idea of just running the OEM injectors and pushing more rail pressure and relieving the back pressure and intake restrictions to get the best power and torque you can.
A good move for now as it means less headaches and a great boost over stage 2. VNT and upgraded injectors are obviously another way to go, but going straight there (stage 4?) before trying what I'd call stage 3 (what you have), is costly and fraught with issues aplenty.


As with another remap I'm working on with a similar spec to yours, I can get a good rounded remap to work with this kinda setup generally, and then tweak from there in smaller intervals, keeping a keen eye on the EGT and possibly some logged data via Peugeot Planet (mainly MAF, SOI and IQ data to make sure it's doing what it's being asked!)


Yes, the FPS wire pins are the other way around on the 1.6 sensor body. I'm not sure which ones/way around they are as I've never done the loom work, but in theory it should be easy enough to swap.
I've seen people do this with an 'extension' lead (from a tuning box type thing usually which has an interceptor to the FPS sensor), so they can just rewire the plug flipped on the extension, and toggle from standard to flipped easily if required.


As per figures, well in theory I'd say 185bhp is probably the limit on the injectors at about 3500rpm, maybe 4000rpm. It depends how high the rail pressure can go at the higher pressures, which all depends on the entire injection system really... but around that I'd say.
Torque will probably be quite similar to a k03/gt15 HDi I'd say, 300lbft at 2500rpm. I've never gone higher than that really. I'm sure it's possible but there are loads of limiters on fuel injections built into the ECU at around that much torque at about 2500rpm.
I think what will probably make the difference is things like your intake and turbo turbine back pressure maybe, they're more likely to free up power (torque) at low rpm vs the smaller turbo cars, so torque might be more in the 325lbft region.
BUT, I'd just be wary of cranking too much torque through right away mainly for gearbox concerns. Remember the OEM spec for torque for this gearbox is 400Nm iirc, so about 300lbft. Usually a clutch is placed as a weak point so it fails/slips before the gearbox goes pop. So replacing the clutch with one that won't slip means the gearbox takes the grief!

I can probably map for 300lbft without an issue, but once I go beyond that I'd let you decide if you want to risk the gearbox because I honestly have no experience on pushing those and what might happen. Ie, in 1st 2nd and 3rd, and maybe 4th in winter it might be fine, tyres slip instead of full torque being transmitted.
But in summer in the dry with sticky tyres, hmmmm, might be different!

Cheers

Dave

-------------------------
Ok so hope this helps out [SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES] hoping to have this built by the end of jan so will let you know how much i screwed up

[toseland]

That slinky stuff will be fine for cold air to the filter but will collapse under any sort of vaccuum provided by the turbo.. have a look at agricultural vacuum tube, it's rated to several hundred mmhg of suck, and often smooth wall. Can get sizes from 10mm right up to 4 Inch id.

[dr_jekyll]

That slinky stuff will be fine for cold air to the filter but will collapse under any sort of vaccuum provided by the turbo.. have a look at agricultural vacuum tube, it's rated to several hundred mmhg of suck, and often smooth wall. Can get sizes from 10mm right up to 4 Inch id.

Cheers for the tip

[MY95]

Id go by what Whippy says, 185bhp does sound about right for maxxing the injectors, 200bhp I think will make the engine shat itself id think, especially if it hasn't been rebuilt, Bryn's 230bhp one didn't last long and that was rebuilt IIRC, and I think 320lbft will give you gearbox and probably even paddle clutch issues too. Could be very costly for you replacing parts, and unless they are new, the used parts you buy may only last the same time as the failed ones. If it was me id enjoy a reliable ish 180bhp/300lbft and see how it goes for a bit before going any higher, but its all trial and error I suppose, otherwise no one would learn about these engines and gearboxes etc would they.

[Toms306]

Bryns was a long time ago don't forget, the tech has come on since then!

[dr_jekyll]

Id go by what Whippy says, 185bhp does sound about right for maxxing the injectors, 200bhp I think will make the engine shat itself id think, especially if it hasn't been rebuilt, Bryn's 230bhp one didn't last long and that was rebuilt IIRC, and I think 320lbft will give you gearbox and probably even paddle clutch issues too. Could be very costly for you replacing parts, and unless they are new, the used parts you buy may only last the same time as the failed ones. If it was me id enjoy a reliable ish 180bhp/300lbft and see how it goes for a bit before going any higher, but its all trial and error I suppose, otherwise no one would learn about these engines and gearboxes etc would they.

Clutch is new and gearbox a low millage as i recently shat a clutch and diff from a box. My stage 2 made 146bhp and peaked at 290lbft with a few issues.

I really am expecting to pop the engine as shes 211k and a daily but we shall see. As you say its very much trial and error.

[MY95]

Bryns was a long time ago don't forget, the tech has come on since then!

Big difference though Tom, Bryn's was newer at the time, spent tonnes on AMG injectors etc, was rebuilt and had a lot less miles! There isn't any difference in the HDI90 engine though between BRYN's and Dr J's as standard.

---

Id go by what Whippy says, 185bhp does sound about right for maxxing the injectors, 200bhp I think will make the engine shat itself id think, especially if it hasn't been rebuilt, Bryn's 230bhp one didn't last long and that was rebuilt IIRC, and I think 320lbft will give you gearbox and probably even paddle clutch issues too. Could be very costly for you replacing parts, and unless they are new, the used parts you buy may only last the same time as the failed ones. If it was me id enjoy a reliable ish 180bhp/300lbft and see how it goes for a bit before going any higher, but its all trial and error I suppose, otherwise no one would learn about these engines and gearboxes etc would they.

Clutch is new and gearbox a low millage as i recently shat a clutch and diff from a box. My stage 2 made 146bhp and peaked at 290lbft with a few issues.

I really am expecting to pop the engine as shes 211k and a daily but we shall see. As you say its very much trial and error.

Good on the gearbox side of things then, adding another 40+ bhp may come as a bit of an issue though, especially seeing as yours is at quite a high mileage already, especially to be going stage 3. But yes only time will tell what happens, good luck with the project and I look forward to seeing some updates

[toseland]

Bryns was a long time ago don't forget, the tech has come on since then!

Big difference though Tom, Bryn's was newer at the time, spent tonnes on AMG injectors etc, was rebuilt and had a lot less miles! There isn't any difference in the HDI90 engine though between BRYN's and Dr J's as standard.

---

Id go by what Whippy says, 185bhp does sound about right for maxxing the injectors, 200bhp I think will make the engine shat itself id think, especially if it hasn't been rebuilt, Bryn's 230bhp one didn't last long and that was rebuilt IIRC, and I think 320lbft will give you gearbox and probably even paddle clutch issues too. Could be very costly for you replacing parts, and unless they are new, the used parts you buy may only last the same time as the failed ones. If it was me id enjoy a reliable ish 180bhp/300lbft and see how it goes for a bit before going any higher, but its all trial and error I suppose, otherwise no one would learn about these engines and gearboxes etc would they.

Clutch is new and gearbox a low millage as i recently shat a clutch and diff from a box. My stage 2 made 146bhp and peaked at 290lbft with a few issues.

I really am expecting to pop the engine as shes 211k and a daily but we shall see. As you say its very much trial and error.

Good on the gearbox side of things then, adding another 40+ bhp may come as a bit of an issue though, especially seeing as yours is at quite a high mileage already, especially to be going stage 3. But yes only time will tell what happens, good luck with the project and I look forward to seeing some updates

AMG injectors arent ideal..  ALL of my research points toward modified nozzles (standard ones) either custom made or extrude honed,  then flow tested, setup and sorted nicely with slightly better "top half" if that makes sense.. 

Jammapic supplies just these from my enquiries but i still haven't had a price for a set yet!

[dr_jekyll]

Bryns was a long time ago don't forget, the tech has come on since then!

Big difference though Tom, Bryn's was newer at the time, spent tonnes on AMG injectors etc, was rebuilt and had a lot less miles! There isn't any difference in the HDI90 engine though between BRYN's and Dr J's as standard.

---

Id go by what Whippy says, 185bhp does sound about right for maxxing the injectors, 200bhp I think will make the engine shat itself id think, especially if it hasn't been rebuilt, Bryn's 230bhp one didn't last long and that was rebuilt IIRC, and I think 320lbft will give you gearbox and probably even paddle clutch issues too. Could be very costly for you replacing parts, and unless they are new, the used parts you buy may only last the same time as the failed ones. If it was me id enjoy a reliable ish 180bhp/300lbft and see how it goes for a bit before going any higher, but its all trial and error I suppose, otherwise no one would learn about these engines and gearboxes etc would they.

Clutch is new and gearbox a low millage as i recently shat a clutch and diff from a box. My stage 2 made 146bhp and peaked at 290lbft with a few issues.

I really am expecting to pop the engine as shes 211k and a daily but we shall see. As you say its very much trial and error.

Good on the gearbox side of things then, adding another 40+ bhp may come as a bit of an issue though, especially seeing as yours is at quite a high mileage already, especially to be going stage 3. But yes only time will tell what happens, good luck with the project and I look forward to seeing some updates

Cheers thinking of buying another engine just to rebuild once its alive. Was bash mentioned the other day 16v rods are stronger then 8v so may look into them unless i can afford forged at the time.

Deffo keep watching the project thread tho as its gonna happen no matter the outcome [FACE WITH TEARS OF JOY]

---

Bryns was a long time ago don't forget, the tech has come on since then!

Big difference though Tom, Bryn's was newer at the time, spent tonnes on AMG injectors etc, was rebuilt and had a lot less miles! There isn't any difference in the HDI90 engine though between BRYN's and Dr J's as standard.

---

Id go by what Whippy says, 185bhp does sound about right for maxxing the injectors, 200bhp I think will make the engine shat itself id think, especially if it hasn't been rebuilt, Bryn's 230bhp one didn't last long and that was rebuilt IIRC, and I think 320lbft will give you gearbox and probably even paddle clutch issues too. Could be very costly for you replacing parts, and unless they are new, the used parts you buy may only last the same time as the failed ones. If it was me id enjoy a reliable ish 180bhp/300lbft and see how it goes for a bit before going any higher, but its all trial and error I suppose, otherwise no one would learn about these engines and gearboxes etc would they.

Clutch is new and gearbox a low millage as i recently shat a clutch and diff from a box. My stage 2 made 146bhp and peaked at 290lbft with a few issues.

I really am expecting to pop the engine as shes 211k and a daily but we shall see. As you say its very much trial and error.

Good on the gearbox side of things then, adding another 40+ bhp may come as a bit of an issue though, especially seeing as yours is at quite a high mileage already, especially to be going stage 3. But yes only time will tell what happens, good luck with the project and I look forward to seeing some updates

AMG injectors arent ideal..  ALL of my research points toward modified nozzles (standard ones) either custom made or extrude honed,  then flow tested, setup and sorted nicely with slightly better "top half" if that makes sense.. 

Jammapic supplies just these from my enquiries but i still haven't had a price for a set yet!

Dervtech now produce tips but at a massive £800 a set!