Torsion bars for 205

[Tom]

So Joey has a 309 rear beam and i need stiffer torsion bars, So i need to find either some 306 gti bars which will be impossible, or try and get lucky getting some for a peugeot partner. Now my thought was can you make torsion bars? Steel bar and get someone to machine splines into the end? And then turn it down to the diameter i want? Or maybe even cut and sleeve a 306 torsion bar? 306 ones are longer hence why i cant use one of them. Any body have some ideas?

[Jimbo]

You cant make them I doubt, proper sprung metal strength etc will never be right.

[Rippthrough]

Yeah, you want spring steel, then you want to find someone to machine the splines, then heat treat it, and really you should have the bar centreless ground to finish after heat treating.

Then you'll get a bill for about £5-600 for a pair of 1-offs...

So, buy some of the aftermarket ones being made already, or wait for some secondhand bars to turn up.

[Alan_M]

So Joey has a 309 rear beam and i need stiffer torsion bars, So i need to find either some 306 gti bars which will be impossible, or try and get lucky getting some for a peugeot partner. Now my thought was can you make torsion bars? Steel bar and get someone to machine splines into the end? And then turn it down to the diameter i want? Or maybe even cut and sleeve a 306 torsion bar? 306 ones are longer hence why i cant use one of them. Any body have some ideas?

Ask on 205GTiDrivers. Pretty sure thicker 309 TBs are still available, 205 beam TBs are about certainly. It's the GTi6 ARB that's turned down to fit a 309 beam, I have one on my 205.

[lolsteve]

if you cut and weld you'd have to be sure the weld is strong enough, otherwise it could fail at the joins?

[Josh_Quant]

your have to get 309 bars.... 205 are shorter and 306 will be to long i bet

[Tom]

Hmm i have had a look on there, after being on here its so hard to work any other forum lol

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if you cut and weld you'd have to be sure the weld is strong enough, otherwise it could fail at the joins?

I seen Edd do it on wheeler dealers to an ARB so figured it was worth a shout lol!

[Rippthrough]

Terrible idea on spring steel.

[Tom]

Yeah i didnt think it was a great idea :/ Going to ring a few peugeot places tomorrow, see if i can find a partner scrap beam, however lucky that would be lol.

[powerandtorque]

Careful, as it's only certain Partner/Berlingo models that have the correct 21.3mm torsion bars - some only have 20mm from memory, which is the same as you'll already have fitted to your beam.

As has been said, for torsion bars there's nothing else that you can do other than custom made ones - you can't cut down and weld a torsion bar, and that I'm aware of there's nothing else OE off the shelf that will fit a 309 beam that's thicker than you've already got fitted.

306 GTi-6 torsion bars are the same thickness as what you've already got (20mm) and the bars fitted to late estates and Xsara VTS models (21mm) are too long to fit a 309 beam. As has been said, you're probably getting muddled with the ARB's which can be cut down and resplined or cut and welded to the end plate - I don't particularly like the later option but it can be done.

I do have a pair of 21.3mm Partner/Berlingo torsion bars that were bought new from Peugeot and only used for a few weeks if they're of any interest? Still in black powder coat and I think even have the original Peugeot stickers on them. I had been planning on fitting them to my own car, but I've since reverted back to a 205 width beam and hence they're sat here gathering dust.

I'd be looking for £125 posted for them, or call it £150 and I'll throw in a 309 width 22mm ARB too - the splines are a little loose/worn on the ARB but it works perfectly when fitted to the car and goes well with the above TB's.

[darrenjlobb]

Tom I will go underneath it later and measure what you have atm...as I dont even know what bars are in your beam to start with. Id imagine base model 309 ones whatever they are...

[powerandtorque]

Ah, I'd assumed that they were atleast 309 GTi ones!

If it's a base model 309 beam, then merely upgrading the torsion and anti-roll bars to GTi spec (both 20mm) will be a massive improvement over what's on there now.

[darrenjlobb]

Thats what im suspect of...They are awfully soft, soon as i got in the car I noticed how soft the back end was, makes it scrub like a whore and its not even that low...Ill measure up later, as id say in a stripped out 205 a set of 309 gti ones would be a significant improovement

[Tom]

I read some base spec 309's had 18.something mm bars :/

[Tom]

Right just to bump this thread up again. My 205 has 19mm TB's (the open end of a 19mm spanner goes over nicely with a bit of slack so they might even be a bit less) Now i cant afford to but bigger tbs. But my tyres are catching my arches at the back because its so soft, so i thought what if i put the gti6 arb in there (cut down and weld the end plate on) will that keep it more level and stop it catching so much? Obviously i will get some bigger tbs in the future but im looking for something cheaper to do in the mean time. '6 arb's are pretty easy to come by so would be a cheap thing to do.

[powerandtorque]

A bigger ARB will help keep it flatter when cornering and thus the outside wheel won't tuck quite so far up in the arch, but it's not going to help if you're also scrubbing on bumps etc in a straight line.

If you've got base model 309 torsion bars then it's likely you've got a base model ARB too - if so, a GTi-6 one will be a massive change

Have the original base model arches been cut out on that shell when the plastic arch trims were fitted? If not, then it's no wonder you're having problems as lowered 309 beams on base model shells are problematic at the best of times, let alone when it's so soft.

Also, check your bump stops are still present - they're often missing and that'll only exasibate tyre and arch intimacy issues.

[Tom]

A bigger ARB will help keep it flatter when cornering and thus the outside wheel won't tuck quite so far up in the arch, but it's not going to help if you're also scrubbing on bumps etc in a straight line.

If you've got base model 309 torsion bars then it's likely you've got a base model ARB too - if so, a GTi-6 one will be a massive change

Have the original base model arches been cut out on that shell when the plastic arch trims were fitted? If not, then it's no wonder you're having problems as lowered 309 beams on base model shells are problematic at the best of times, let alone when it's so soft.

Also, check your bump stops are still present - they're often missing and that'll only exasibate tyre and arch intimacy issues.

I am actually missing a bumpstop on drivers side which is were it scrubs the most. I only scrub when straight on like those really awkward speed bumps when im going to fast over them. Not that i go fast over them alot. I could live with the occasional speed bump scrub though. Its the crrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr (rubbing noise) around corners that does my head in and makes anyone in the car think its broken :/

Dont think the arches have been cut out either, but they catch the plastic ones too i think.

[powerandtorque]

Fit another bump stop first and foremost then - if it's been missing for a long time then you'll probably have fun trying to remove the rusted remains of the M8 bolt that held the old cup in place, assuming that's crumbled away as usual.

If it's mainly rubbing during cornering then the bigger ARB will help significantly - just remember that it needs to be welded properly by someone that knows what they're doing and has a welder powerful enough to get decent penetration - your average pigeon s**t welds will last no time at all before breaking given the forces acting on the bar.

[Tom]

Do you think im actually hitting the bump stops? Going to try and adjust my rear shocks in a minute for ultimate stiffness, giggidy.

[powerandtorque]

On a typical 30-40mm lowered 205 you'll easily hit the standard bump stops, and that's with GTi spec bars.

Indeed, you normally need to cut the bump stops down on a lowered car as you end up with very little rear suspension travel otherwise - obviously there's only so much that you can cut them down before you'll have problems with the tire hitting something that it shouldn't.

With the car sat on the ground, have a look at the remaining bump stop and you'll see how much travel the arm has left before it hits it. You normally want to cut them back by 15-20mm or so on a lowered car, as obviously hitting the bump stops is far from desireable in terms of suspension effectiveness and road holding.

[Tom]

Lock nuts in the shock adjuster and stuck in there to f*ck and not coming out so that idea is out the window. Got some pics of bumpstopyness...



Theres actually not a great deal of room in there... Heres the missing one:



Photos are taken by me lying on my back, beauty of having no spare wheel, i can just lie underneath and theres tonnes of room!

[powerandtorque]

It doesn't look like it's that low judging by the clearance between the (unmodified) bump stop and arm.

You're almost certainly hitting it still though - note the clean bit on the end where presumably its been touching the arm whereas the rest of it is caked in mud.

You might be lucky on that OSR bumpstop too, as that bolt head still looks pretty good and should hopefully undo with a decent 6-sided socket on it and a little patience.

[Tom]

I dont know how the underside of the car is that filthy, its normally no where near that bad, looks like i been rallying up the clay pits but i havent :/ How do bump stops go on/come off? Do you know if any other cars fit? My scrappy probably doesnt have many 205's...

[powerandtorque]

It's the same part as a 306/Xsara.

The cup is held on by a single M8 bolt (you can see it in your photo) and then the rubber bump stop sits in the cup.

The challenge is usually getting the original bolt out, but as I said, yours looks much better than others I've had the pleasure of doing over the years and thus hopefully with a decent socket and a bit of patience it'll come out.

[Tom]

So if i go scrappy the rubber bit will just pull off? I could just pull that bolt out, grease it then put it back and just put another rubber in there, couldnt i?

[powerandtorque]

The cup is missing from your OSR so you'll need that as well. I'd imagine that dark circular shape around the bolt head in your photo is all that remains of it.

Basically, wiggle and pull the rubber bump stop out and then undo the M8 bolt (13mm head) to take the cup out.

Make sure that the one you're removing is actually in good condition though if getting it from a scrap car, as they're all going to be 10+ years old and hence you'll find plenty with perished rubber or - more commonly - corroded cups. Find the latest Xsara you can as you've the most chance of getting a good one from that.

Refitting is the reverse of removal - plenty of copper slip on the bolt is a good idea along with a large penny washer. The rubber can occasionally be a bit arkward to get back in, but a small amount of lube and a flat blade screwdriver to poke it the edges into the cup usually gets it back in easily enough.

Have a look at the NSR one on your 205 too, as chances are if one has fallen off then the other isn't likely to be in wonderful condition either and thus might be worth getting two whilst you're at the scrappy.

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This gives you an idea of what the bump stop consists of:

[welshpug]

bump stop kit still available from dealers for circa £12 a side.