406 hdi tunning

[derv]

i've got a 406 110hdi which has been mapped to approx 140bhp and i'm looking to get more from it ,there seems very little info on tuning 406's i suppose most people just see them as a big barge.
i know it's basically the same engine as the 90bhp fitted to the 306 but i believe the boost is controlled via the ecu.
has anyone got any experience with the 110bhp engine and ecu ,i was thinking of fitting a R70 pump with a 1800bar rail sensor and a bigger intercooler, what sort of power would i be able to get with this set up.
i keep reading about people fitting a TD04 turbo would this work with my car with the ecu controlling the boost and are there decent gains to be made.
sorry for all the questions i know this is a 306 forum but it's seems to be the best place for hdi tuning information

[Pete]

Pretty sure 406's have Siemens ECU/Fuel system though and they're a bastard to remap apparently, I know this as my van has the same ghey ECU

[madmadmax]

the inter cooler is whats stopping you upping the boost so change that and then talk to steve or who ever and get your self a stage 2 map and it wont have a Siemens ECU unless you are unlucky

with the set up you suggest it will do about 160bhp on average and that's where most call it quits as it gets pricey quick

[Mr Whippy]

They should remap just the same as a HDi90.

As with those, a bigger intercooler is perhaps better if the piping is also good, but the main things are that everything you have fitted is in good condition.

Ie, clean out the intercooler as they gunk up over 10+ years, make sure the car is up to date on all service items etc.

I can't see why 150bhp isn't do-able on a boggo HDi110.

Add exhaust mods and 155bhp.

Maybe with more work and FMIC and getting things really good 160bhp might be possible.


Dave

[pro_steve]

You don't get Siemens on the 110 406, only the 90 406. I usually set 140 BHP on the stock intercooler, fit a bigger IC and a bit more boost and it's no different to what we do on the stage 2 maps for the 90 models.
What might give you trouble however is the boost sensor, when you start getting nearer to 1.45 bar the sensor will have SRC high and flag a fault code. This means you either keep boost below 1.4 (which is 20.5 PSI) which is more than adequate, or you fit the 3 bar map sensor to account for any boost spikes. Boost will always spike a little unless you turn down the response rate so it needs a good balance between the two.
For example, I've just finished setting up the stage 1 on my 1.6 HDI, the boost sensor on that only goes to 1.5 bar, no problem for a stage 1 at all.
I've now added a massive intercooler and have a bigger turbo to go on so I've calibrated the 3 bar map sensor. There's no need to go to 3 bar, but I can set 1.45 bar boost (21 psi) without the risk of going out the range of the sensor.

I'm in the process of setting one up for a 110 2.0 HDI, just awaiting details of the map sensor so I can calibrate it correctly.

With all that said, I quite often set 150 BHP on the 2.0 110 models if they are low mileage and in good condition, I do recommend the larger intercooler though. It's also worth removing EGR, cat and those air dosers which restrict your pipe work.

[Mr Whippy]

Pesky boost control hehe.

Better off with a HDi90 as a starting point

Are those sensors calibrated on absolute boost then, ie, 1 > 2.5bar giving you your 0 > 1.5bar boost range?
So the 3 bar sensor is a 1 > 4bar absolute sensor?

I've never looked too deeply into those calibrations on the HDi110 but I expect they are relatively trivial to swap around like MAF etc. I guess the bigger issue is if you fit a big FMIC for a 406 HDi 110 is getting an appropriate connection and/or loom adjustments etc so the sensor can be sited appropriately.

Have you ever logged the sensor output Steve? Just curious if they have much more overhead and are just mapped with a narrow range, or really do run out of range.

Dave

[pro_steve]

Dave, it's 3 bar absolute, (MAP is Manifold Absolute Pressure, but you know that ), meaning I can now read to 2 bar gauge, however the gt1544v is not safe for much past 1.5 bar really.

On the 1.6 it reads to 1495 and no fault occurs for a while, I'm assuming it's a different sensor on the 2.0 110 but I can check. In fact I will do it now. What is more likely is that the maximum voltage before an error is lower, or the fault timer. That's a good question, I'll report back haha.

---

Interesting, it's the same sensor on both 2.0 and 2.2 HDI. Ever so slightly on the 1.6 HDI, except the top end is exactly the same.

However, the fault condition is higher for the 1.6, this is why when initially remove the DPF (with massive boost spikes thanks to ECU safe) I could read up to 2495 mbar.

I think that on the 2.0 I will be able to raise the threshold for the error and get more use out of the sensor. Just need a car to test this on....

[derv]

steve, it was you who did the map on my 110 and i am looking for more power, the car has been decatted ,egr deleted and will soon have a straight through exhaust and was thinking of fitting a R70 pump and a 1.6 rail sensor and also a bigger intercooler, so are we saying with these mods i would be looking at say 160bhp.
also you say you sometimes set the 110 at 150bhp if i gave you the details of the map you gave me would you know what mine is set at, if mine is already at say 150bhp then doing all the mods and another map for 10bhp doesn't seem worth the bother

[pro_steve]

It's what ever I've written in the file name? I would do this in stages, so first get the bigger intercooler set up and go to 150, I'll up the boost a bit too. Next once that's all going good then go for the 1800 bar sensor and I'll get fuel pressure up to about 1600 bar max and make you a 160 torque curve to suit.
Drop us an email if you want.

[Poodle]

No point spending out on all the fuelling mods if you're not going to spec a turbo to match imo, the gt15/k03 just can't handle the exhaust flow - this is why everybody is breaking cams, rockers, etc on the exhaust side.

[derv]

should have noticed that it's a 140 map, i'll work on the intercooler first as i'm not sure how much space i've got with the aircon rad in there, although i might just junk the aircon to give me a bit more space.
i think i would rather do all the work and go straight for a 160map and then i'm only paying for one more map if that ok with you.

[pro_steve]

Yeah that's fine with me. Poodle, it's beneficial to have increased fuel pressure though as it reduces the length of injection which in turn eases exhaust manifold pressure.
This is why I usually recommend it when pushing hard, also dropping the boost back a tiny bit usually cures lifter problems as the main increase in EMP is from keeping the waste gate shut whilst looking for more boost.

[Poodle]

Aye, but for another ~£150 why wouldn't you? Means you're clear to 180+bhp, which is worth spending out on the fuelling for.

[derv]

are we talking about fitting a td04 turbo and would that work on a 110 engine if that's the case i would be interested in going that route for the extra power.

[mcglynn]

Fit a gt series, could even go vnt with a 110 easier.

[Mr Whippy]

£150 to upgrade the turbo!?

I think some people sometimes might do great mods like that, but for most mortals who maybe have a sprinkling of siezed parts, bad luck and whatever else then the costs to fit a hybrid turbo can be quite high.

That isn't to say it's a good approach. Chances are you can get 175bhp easier with just a hybrid than pushing the smaller turbos hard and needing the injection system working overtime to achieve it.


Thanks for those details Steve. So OEM is in essence a 2.5bar range (absolute), but in the HDi110/2.2 they are aggressive on fault response... I guess just easing off those fault responses is the best bet, just like we can do on the rail pressure ones.


I'd agree the 1800bar sensor is a good fit for pushing hard and it's a cheap and easy fit.

But I think it's always important to let people know that it doesn't guarantee running high rail pressure. You need a good healthy injection system generally too. That might be a dirty rail relief valve causing issues through to a raft of injector leak off issues etc etc...

If you can get to 150bhp/250lbft then stop there and be happy and really think if the £500+ outlay to possibly get to 160bhp/280lbft or so is really worth it!


I guess in these cases like Poodle says it's better to then consider the upgraded turbo route as it's a much faster way to a load more real world performance and probably giving the injection system and clutch an easier time too

Dave

[Poodle]

Cheers for that Steve, missed your post before.

Well, depends how you do it of course, if you want to spunk £500-1000 on a hybrid you can. You could build your own, but then you need some in-depth knowledge to match it all properly, etc... Alternatively a gt17-20, td04, k03s-4 can be had from ebay for well under a ton, and then theres £50 or so to spend on an adapter plate, new oil lines and an elbow. I guess you could include possible worst-case scenario costs, but then you could do the same for any mod.

As said in another thread, people have a tendency to focus purely on the inlet side of turbo mods, which is short-sighted at best, possibly terminal on these engines. They NEED more exhaust flow, as such a hybrid turbo that fits the standard exhaust housing, as is popular, is actually a fairly poor mod, both in terms of efficiency and bang for buck. Much better imo to put on something that's properly matched and designed from the factory. Plus, as you say Dave, the higher boost threshold means less stress on the clutch and injection system, which can't be a bad thing.

[Mr Whippy]

Good points Poodle.

From experience the 'softer' action of a bigger slower turbo does help out everything a great deal.

I've seen an LuK run years at 275lbft when used in a soft torque environment (ie, not insta-boost GT15 sudden jump from 100lbft > 300lbft scenario )

And yes the higher engine speeds mean the HP pump is running faster and can do more work too... just the pistons are moving faster too... but the same IQ's at say 155bhp on a GT15 will make more like 175bhp on a turbo with a nice free-flowing turbine end just due to restriction reduction!


I think the Iveco bits into a K03 hybrid body are a good approach... I think the only bit you 'hybrid' is machining out the standard K03 turbine outlet...

Pete said he's had 185-190bhp on these so they have plenty of potential.


I'm tuning one right now and working up on the outputs slowly to get things really nice, and it's easily making IQ's for 275lbft in the mid-range and making ample air flow for big power at the 4000rpm point too. Currently at 160bhp at 3000rpm and ramping up the top end to get a nice smooth curve.

We'll go higher on torque just to see what it can do but in the end I think it just ruins the delivery if you go too hard on torque.

Dave

[pro_steve]

Hybrid turbos are the biggest waste of money I've seen, they just don't really make sense to me.
Garrett/Borgwarner/MHI design their turbos and put in a lot of effort to match the compressor, turbine, housing etc and then some hybrid turbo company bores a big hole in the turbine housing and messes it all up, or worse fits a bigger compressor whilst keeping the small turbine wheel. Most of the hybrids just have an uprated bearing, they then quote you can boost more, however they are far out of their designed efficiency range a likely nothing but a hot air pump.

When it's easy and cheap to do I'm not against hybrids, for example the K03S hybrid can work out quite well, however spending £500-£750 on one is just obscene. It's always going to be cheaper to get an adaptor made and use a different turbo that has the right compressor/turbine setup with appropriate housings.

[Poodle]

Exactly that.

We've established that exhaust back pressure is one of the biggest restricting factors these engines face, both for power and reliability, so keeping the stock turbine housing and forcing it to drive ever higher boost pressures is a fast track ticket to a dead head/engine. When these engines are letting go on a stock turbo, it's due to the exhaust housing being so restrictive, which is why I don't understand the desire to keep the stock turbine housing AND make it work harder, thereby increasing back pressure further. We've exceeded the standard turbo's efficient flow capacity with a good stage 2, so the capacity for more exhaust flow is essential for further tuning. Reaming the housing as they do for a hybrid will give fractionally more flow, but nowhere near enough. And as Steve points out, it loses a lot of the turbo's efficiency in the process - would you try and tow a 18 tonne artic trailer with a landrover? Of course not, because while it might just do the job, any sort of efficiency goes out of the window and you'll be stressing the landrover to all hell - same principle.