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**Ruan** · 12-09-2013, 09:05 AM

(11-09-2013, 08:30 PM)Dum-Dum Wrote: On the intake flow subject Im pretty sure that the 2.2 is a pair of 30mm valves and the 8v is a 36mm both with 6mm stems so the 2.2 16v will flow more at the valves (if a very quick mental estimate is right)

Think for a second WHY Peugeot went for the 16v head... To use TWO sets of valves to be able to have higher gas velocity all the time to give a stronger swirl (that's also why they had swirl flaps - so they can cut off a valve per cylinder at lower RPMs for stronger swirl) - it's PURELY down to emissions..

Exact same reason the 2.1 12v has an extra 2 inlet valves - two pipes with a smaller bore will result in the same amount of airflow, but higher velocity in them... But also causes more restriction - since the swirl effect uses energy to be generated...

Your gains of having a 2.2 engine are negligible, on the basis that you could quite happily get to the point where more boost doesn't equal more air in the cylinders because the head is the restriction - once you get to that point, whether you have a 2.2 litre engine or a 2.0 litre engine or even you could put that cylinder head on a 1.6 litre engine, you've reached the limits of the head - I would put money that the 1.6 litre engine would give as good results as a 2.2 litre with the same head... That's a disadvantage of turbocharged engines - but also an advantage... Displacement is heavilly masked by turbocharging...

Look at that 1.5 ish litre Supercharged XU some chap on the GTi6 forum did, 230hp with the same hardware as the usual low boost engines - that's all because the head flows well, therefore you don't need the displacement, since the forced induction is doing a great job of that for you!

If however you make the cylinder head flow better, then fair enough, but I guarantee you'll run into other problems before you need the extra displacement to help you out... Again, therefore, the 2.2 litre is a pointless upgrade.

**Piggy** · (This post was last modified: 12-09-2013, 09:09 AM by Piggy.)

230bhp from the 1.5....hmmmmmm

^^^tiz also why I am considering fitting the 1.9 8v head on the 2.1 in future

**Ruan** · 12-09-2013, 09:10 AM

That's a GTi6 remember...

But 240hp has been seen out of a 1.6 indirect VW engine.

THE_Liam · 12-09-2013, 09:59 AM

(12-09-2013, 06:23 AM)Piggy Wrote:
(12-09-2013, 05:45 AM)Poodle Wrote: Have you ever met Dum-dum? Thats exactly what hes doing it for!

no, he doing it to say, 'my engines bigger than your engine'

(12-09-2013, 05:57 AM)THE_Liam Wrote:
(11-09-2013, 09:40 PM)Piggy Wrote: I dont think Dumdum is doing this for the "I have the most power and flow rates" contest.......and for that, he wins.

but for the OP.....V6 is mega big, heavy and takes a LOT of modding. Not worth it IMO.

The V6 isn't actually that heavy, not really any heavier than the '6 engine, it's just not canted back.

but the v6 is heavier than the '6 engine...and that is already half the weight of the moon.. dont you notice the tides change when theres a 306 meet?!

Remember the V6 is all-alloy mate. Pretty sure it's about the same weight.

Erm... Ruan? Is that right?

Pete · 12-09-2013, 10:27 AM

About the same weight if not slightly lighter than a 6 lump IIRC. The problem is the weight sits further forward on the V6 compared 6 lump thats tilted back. I'd love a V6 306, my 406 is GTi6 quick so I'd guess the engine in a lighter shell would be awesome..sounds the shiz too.

**Ruan** · 12-09-2013, 11:14 AM

(12-09-2013, 09:59 AM)THE_Liam Wrote:
(12-09-2013, 06:23 AM)Piggy Wrote:
(12-09-2013, 05:45 AM)Poodle Wrote: Have you ever met Dum-dum? Thats exactly what hes doing it for!

no, he doing it to say, 'my engines bigger than your engine'

(12-09-2013, 05:57 AM)THE_Liam Wrote: The V6 isn't actually that heavy, not really any heavier than the '6 engine, it's just not canted back.

but the v6 is heavier than the '6 engine...and that is already half the weight of the moon.. dont you notice the tides change when theres a 306 meet?!

Remember the V6 is all-alloy mate. Pretty sure it's about the same weight.

Erm... Ruan? Is that right?

GTi6 is about 160-170kg all in, V6 is about 190-200kg.

It is heavier - fully dressed with everything apparently it's 215kg...

I assume that's what you're asking?

Dum-Dum · 12-09-2013, 12:55 PM

(12-09-2013, 09:05 AM)Ruan Wrote:
(11-09-2013, 08:30 PM)Dum-Dum Wrote: On the intake flow subject Im pretty sure that the 2.2 is a pair of 30mm valves and the 8v is a 36mm both with 6mm stems so the 2.2 16v will flow more at the valves (if a very quick mental estimate is right)

Think for a second WHY Peugeot went for the 16v head... To use TWO sets of valves to be able to have higher gas velocity all the time to give a stronger swirl (that's also why they had swirl flaps - so they can cut off a valve per cylinder at lower RPMs for stronger swirl) - it's PURELY down to emissions..

Exact same reason the 2.1 12v has an extra 2 inlet valves - two pipes with a smaller bore will result in the same amount of airflow, but higher velocity in them... But also causes more restriction - since the swirl effect uses energy to be generated...

I understand that the swirl takes a certain amount of energy as does having more smaller ports because of the percentage of the air thats (simple terms) dragging along the wall of the port. That said running a turbo charger saps engine power to the tune of about 5% and running a supercharger takes about 20%. Hell a 306 gearbox saps nearly 25% of the engines power before putting it to the road but nobody does anything to solve that do they.

Anyway back to inlet swirl, a bit of engery to get the air in means a better burn so more energy out of the fuel so more power. Think ill take that trade off especially as 75% of my driving these days is smashing up and down the A41 not ragging the tits off the car.

I know that the actual "gains" of the 2.2 ore negligible but I'm not looking for a mega high horsepower revvy screamer. Id much rather a stupidly torquey driveline destroyer and the 2.2 IS the better engine for that.

I suppose the cold honest truth is if anyone was really desperate for a big power diesel 306 they'd drop in a VAG engine. Most of us are just messing because we can doing mods that are easy enough.

THE_Liam · 12-09-2013, 02:07 PM

(12-09-2013, 11:14 AM)Ruan Wrote:
(12-09-2013, 09:59 AM)THE_Liam Wrote:
(12-09-2013, 06:23 AM)Piggy Wrote: no, he doing it to say, 'my engines bigger than your engine'

but the v6 is heavier than the '6 engine...and that is already half the weight of the moon.. dont you notice the tides change when theres a 306 meet?!

Remember the V6 is all-alloy mate. Pretty sure it's about the same weight.

Erm... Ruan? Is that right?

GTi6 is about 160-170kg all in, V6 is about 190-200kg.

It is heavier - fully dressed with everything apparently it's 215kg...

I assume that's what you're asking?

Cheers dude that was what I was asking. For the interests of proving I'm right we'll call that about the same weight, I mean what's 20kg between friends eh? I mean 14kg barely makes a difference right? So yeah, can't see 6kg affecting handling.

Anyway, in summary the V6 is 2kg heavier Piggy.

lol