Pug oem intercoolers

[lolsteve]

How bad are they? decided to look at a few pug/citroen oem ones such as the 206 hdi gti one just to see what they're like

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Intercooler-P ... 1c263feb30
or the pug 807
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/citroen-c8-pe ... 43afc93d10 which has bends on the end so reducing silicone bend needs?

I know they're a bit small but if one was only going to stage 2 or limited torque map wouldn't these be suitable to reach the 150bhp~ mark without the turbo lag found on the larger universal ones ?

[Jonny81191]

what turbo lag? Mine is really responsive, comes on boost really low down, and drives pretty much the same as a stage 1, (only quicker!)

[mark_airey]

there is no lag difference though, its not even noticeable!

[4WayDiablo]

well there will be a lag difference as there is more system to pressurise, but it wont be noticeable

[Jonny81191]

I'll take you out in mine at FCS and you'll see! There really is nothing to worry about.

[Grant]

I have absolutely no lag in my system... Schweeet!




*my coat is already on

[mark_airey]

well there will be a lag difference as there is more system to pressurise, but it wont be noticeable

Well yeah, thats what I ment it makes such a small difference that its not even worth bothering about TBH

I have absolutely no lag in my system... Schweeet!




*my coat is already on

Good good, you left yet?

[Mr Whippy]

There is lag, and it will be worse with a larger cooler, but it's nothing compared to the lag generated by a restrictive exhaust for example...

I'd say the exhaust is say 5x more sensitive to not being 'ideal' compared to your intercooler system...

It really is hard to have perspective on the lag issue but I've driven quite a few FMIC HDi's now and it is noticeable. However as said the exhaust systems seem to make much more difference so I'd concentrate there much more than on the intercooler itself.


In my view it's good to consider intercooler design/efficiency, if it's not the lag it's the pressure drop which will ultimately cost you, needing to run more boost and thus cost you more pumping power or raw crank power.
Or the temp drop might not be ideal costing you in air fuel ratio.

But generally as long as you don't do something really dumb then your better putting time/effort elsewhere. Only if you have money/time to burn after doing other stuff should you throw money into the IC stuff I think.

Dave

[Dum-Dum]

Yeah theres definately lag. On a HDi a massive cooler compared to a tiny one can be a 400rpm difference between when the power comes in. The big cooler made more power peak though.


IMO the one thats on my old estate is perfect for a stage 2 hdi

[lolsteve]

I read through the fmic theory guide and just didn't know how much it would affect day to day driving if the turbo was spooling up a few hundred rpm later
I'm guessing the pug oem ones won't make the power then?

dumdum that was a medium size one like this right?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FRONT-MOUNT-U ... 5198b21f91

Jonny what size you running, thank you for the ride offer but I'm aiming to have this stage 2 done by fcs myself

[Dum-Dum]

Yeah like that steve would be fine, think the one on jonnys is 225mm high though.


Oh and Mr Whippy is right, removing the exhaust restrictions has a much bigger effect on lag.

[Jonny81191]

looks good as far as I can see

[Poodle]

Steve, bear in mind the oem intercoolers are made for 110 engines, ie considerably less than what you're aiming for. We can do more for the lag by getting the pipe routing right - minimum volume and gentle curves - and sorting your exhaust.

[lolsteve]

I guess you're right poodle, I just went on the idea of 90bhp can go to 125 , so could the 110 go to 145.

Cheers dumdum/jonny I'll be keeping a watch on it/make a best offer as an after exam treat.

As for the exhaust I've decatted and got two center boxes running at the moment

[Mr Whippy]

It's always a trade off.

I bet a really good intercooler the size of the HDi110 one piped in really well, could make you 155bhp without issue.

The problems is you can't get the ideal intercooler and ideal piping, so it's about saving money on the hardest bits to get right that make the smallest difference.


I've seen loads of people spending money/time on adding bulges to their end of their boost pipes for the silicone pipes to stretch over, then pay £££ on Mikalor clips.
I just ran roughened up ally pipe ends (sandpaper wrapped around the last 1inch and rotated around a few times), and then used good quality jubilee clips. That is cheaper (clips), less time spent (not making lumps), and will reduce internal flow friction massively as each of those lumps will probably cause flow separation and thus pressure drop.

I ran 22psi, my brother ran 25psi, and we never had one pipe leak, pop off, or even look to not be in perfect condition after a year of use.

Maybe if you are running 30psi you might want to run a bigger pipe, then you can get more friction over the bigger pipe ends.

Just look what OEM's are doing too, they don't have money to burn (much like us), but they want the best system possible too... none of them have fancy bevels on their pipe ends, or mikalor clips etc. They just use jubilee or spring type clips, and use barbed ends on their pipes (no disruption to internal flow that way) etc etc...

Hmmmm

Dave

[mark_airey]

I hear what your saying Dave but find me a way of keeping boost hoses on without the t-bolt clamps and beaded tubes at 40psi and I'm all ears

[Poodle]

Ah I see your reasoning there Steve, fair enough. Will just have to see what we can find up silverlake if you don't want to pay for an ebay jobby. And tbh you'll probably find that a second-hand OEM one flows a bit better than the ebay specials. I've been keeping an eye out myself so will let you know if i spot anything that looks promising.

Mark, bear in mind HDi's don't need the same high boost pressures to make decent power, so by all rights there shouldn't be any need to pay £ra*e.99 for pipe clamps.

[mark_airey]

You can NEVER have too much boost, boost fixes everything

Plus Darrens is pretty much a 16v HDi now and I don't think Jubilee clips on roughed up pipe will quite cut it on that either...........hehe

[kentiiboii]

So if I was thinking about a intercooler for mine eventually.
I'd want one I can hide behind my bumper. What size and price should I be looking at.

[Mr Whippy]

You can NEVER have too much boost, boost fixes everything

Plus Darrens is pretty much a 16v HDi now and I don't think Jubilee clips on roughed up pipe will quite cut it on that either...........hehe

I think the problem is often that Mikalor and beaded tube ends are seen as a must have full stop. 25psi is totally fine on jubilee/roughed pipe, and saves you loads of money for other kit that gets you real gains!

I've seen loads of FMIC on HDi's and they have spent a small fortune on mikalor and farted around with beading and they don't need it, then they skimp on a crap intercooler with horrible pipe routing.


Yes, when all else fails use them, but until then don't bother.

I've seen people with boost hoses popping off at 20psi with mikalor and beaded tubes, but they have horrible oil contamination on the connections. They will go looking for better clips or bigger beads, rather than fix the obvious issues. Simple things done well are often better than complex things done badly.

Even beading is a curious one. Barbed ends are much more sensible, and what OEM's will use. Smooth interiors for low drag, and rough exteriors for high friction.
Punching a channel through the entire tube wall to get a bulge on the outside is really going to hurt you with pressure loss, especially at the massive flow you need for 40psi boost!


I agree everything is a compromise on cost etc, but I just think some people make the wrong compromises. 25psi on a HDi doesn't need a single Mikalor or beaded end.

I just don't want people on here getting the idea that you NEED mikalor for an FMIC, or NEED beading. Spend your money on more important stuff unless you know you'll be running a 35psi+ monster!

Dave

[lolsteve]

I like how this thread is getting some useful information about it rather than just being flamed for the initial question

Cheers poodle, I'm oh so very nearly on my way back just tomorrows the end of year party and then I'll be running home for the stage 2 beauty

[Poodle]

What can we say, welcome to 306oc...

Good work man, see you shortly!

[wonkey18]

Any body got any ideas on what car i can get the bottom pipe off for my fmic?

[4WayDiablo]

Citroen c5 isn't it?