NON starter

[pug306driver]

Well she has finally lets us down, and some many miles from home, but eventually started and behaved all the way home.

v reg phase 3 2l hdi estate

As far as I can remember this is the sequence of events since say 2 weeks before xmas

Last 2 - 3  weeks the locking system has been different, when leaving car and pressing the lock button on the 2 button fob, the car have locked, and after a short delay of say half second, the dead locks operate and the inds flash. Unlocking seems normal.

Jump in and start, a non starter, as it usually starts after 4 to 5 compressions what ever the weather/temp.

lock and unlock the car open and close the drivers door and if your lucky she starts, all good.

This time the car was locked then immediately unlocked itself. All doors where closed properly.

Morning Air temp down to below 3 c as temp gauge is flashing, start, non starter. Lock and unlock and still the same.

Leave to warm up a bit, repeat, still same non starter.

Leave till noon, still the same.

At 3 o clock after the film on telly, temp up to about 10 c from memory, unlock, jump in and starts straight away !!

Stuff inside the car seems a bit damp ( but not in summer ) so ran for a while to charge the battery and air the car.

Emptied the car of a damp overall, stated after repeat performance with lock unlock open and close drivers door and she finally starts, so ran for a bit to charge battery and turned off and locked.

Came back to car early evening and non starter again ( it had rained ) so plugged in pp2000.


Bsi faults, one being ecu unlock signal intermittent, and one being key not recognised intermittent.

There where some eng ecu faults also, a different list to last time, but cleared all faults and she started straight away.

Not tried to start today yet as its pouring down here.

Will be checking drivers door loom as that has had a problem in the past, and need to check diagram as to dead lock unlock feedback signal ?? may be a mech problem with that ??

Will also be checking bsi connections under centre plastics, connection under kick panel by heater, and rear tail gate locks as seem to remember that can be a problem due to water.

Problems seems to be water related when it rains ??

Any other ideas please?

[Uberderv]

What about the key? Do you have a spare to try?

[pug306driver]

Thanks for the reply.

I have a spare key that does/did start the car no problem but the rf locking doesn't work, but will try after trying an new battery in the normal working key first. I suspect it will make no difference but I can tick that one off/rule that one out.

This morning it refused to start, but after a couple of lock/unlock and start cycles, it was the same, until I fiddled with the drivers door loom, then it started straight away.

The Haynes manual only show the ir locking system, so will hunt down the rf system which I hope will be on here.

Am I correct in assuming that, when the doors are dead locked, a dead lock signal is sent to the door, which then deadlocks, and a feedback signal is sent to the "computer" saying thet " yes, the door is now deadlocked" via a mechanical/electronic signal, and, when un dead locked signal sent, door un deadlocks and an undeadlocked mech/electronic/electrical signal is sent to the computer ??

Maybe that sensor is a bit dicky/needs lubing/bad connection etc........

[Ruan]

This isn't a mid nineties Renault. The CL system (RF or IR) has zero influence on the Immobiliser system.

The Immobiliser is completely based upon the transponder chip in the key which is no part of the IR/RF central locking. You can completely remove the CL fob and purely have the transponder chip inside the transponder inductor ring.

When you put any key in the ignition and turn to position two, the BSI/CPH powers up the coil in the transponder ring, this then (wirelessly...) powers up the transponder chip in the key which then sends back a code which is picked up by the coil and is then sent to the BSI/CPH. The BSI/CPH then interprets this signal from the transponder chip and sends a message to the engine controller (ECU) containing the BSI/CPH information _AND_ the transponder chip information. Only if both of these bits of information are correct will the engine controller permit a start up, without this, the engine will crank forever but the ECU will stay in a shutdown state and not power the injectors.

This is so that you cannot pull out a BSI/CPH and key and put it in any car and the engine controller will allow a startup. The transponder chip in the key, BSI/CPH and engine ECU are a matched set.

As said, the central locking system is nothing to do with the system, so you can discount any issues there being the cause, if you see any correlation, it is purely coincidental.

[Poodle]

As above, can guarantee your lock issues have nothing to do with the non-starting, unless water is getting into something that affects both ie the bsi itself (I know that's the not the "correct" name) or associated looms. Either way, don't worry about the locks for now, it's irrelevant until it starts anyway lol.

[pug306driver]

Thanks ruan and poodle.

The car has been behaving normally the past few days, its been relatively dry ( not much rain ) and warm, with the thermometer not flashing and showing 9 degrees c and above, car starting and behaving all good.

However, this morning, relatively dry, thermometer 6 degrees c and yeh, a non starter, but after locking and unlocking ( then it starts to unlock its self again, then returns to normal ) it started normally. There was some snow on the hills across the valley but the thermometer did not "flash".

Its gunna be a relatively dry weekend so will air the car and check out some of the "onion " rings, the first I think the bsi some where under the centre plastic. Hope its just a bad/poor contact there.

Also whilst checking the channel drains where the wiper motor lives ( channel drains all clear ) on the passenger side I found a black rubberish pre formed cranked pipe, one end of which looks like it fits onto a "stub" ( drain pipe ? ) and 2 tabs under the plastics there for the rubber pipe to clip into. I cant feel where the "stub " is so will have to take that area apart and find it. This is just above the air intake for the heater, but have not seen/felt any water/damp on the passenger carpet. That area is close to the bsi area, so maybe cause ??

Will report back later with findings........

[welshpug]

As said, the central locking system is nothing to do with the system, so you can discount any issues there being the cause, if you see any correlation, it is purely coincidental.

are you 100% on that? as I have had a few vehicles with blown CL fuses that would not start, new fuse and they fired straight up.

[Ruan]

Well, the older ones have the starter cutout when the alarm is active - but they are very old - yes I'd expect to see the starter cut out if that happens...

Newer ones if the fuse is popped that powers the BSI/CPH, then yeah, the BSI/CPH won't send any signal to the engine controller, however as OP has said, the CL control is evidently working, because the central locking motors are running and the fob signal is causing the CL controller to run the lock motors. The fuse isn't obviously failing/unfailing - the problem here might be to do with the BSI/CPH being faulty, however fixing door looms and locking/unlocking the car will not bring this back to life, that would then be a faulty BSI/CPH - but again, it's is an entirely different system, it just so happens that the device that sends the signal to the CL controller is within the same box as the device that controls the transponder system.

[pug306driver]

Sit rep, the car has been aired the past few days ( no rain here for the past few days which is very odd/welcomed ! ) and the car has been starting better than before !. no problem starting and no lock.unlock with the doors even !!

I can only conclude that the car cabin was tooo humid, and water getting into the drivers door loom electrics.

I will be chasing down water ingress, that drain hose found in the wiper motor scuttle, possible rear washer hose leaking, water in back on drivers side, and poor/bad connections on the bsi, door locks unit by b pillar and inside of all the doors.

Its then MOT check over time, my this year has gone quick.

[madmadmax]

check the aerial hole in the roof thats right above the bsi

[welshpug]

check the aerial hole in the roof thats right above the bsi

what bsi?


that's the receiver for the remote central locking.

[pug306driver]

Noted, I am still very much a tyro with this car, and am a little bit confused/uncertain as to what electronic box is where and exactly what it does.

The box under the plastic centre bit, by the gear lever is ...................and does...............?

The box at the base of the drivers B pillar is ................and does.................?

I know the engine ecu is under the bonnet passenger side with ours having a large single multi pinned connection block.

Please could someone fill in the 2 blanks above with correct terminology and function ?

[welshpug]

if its a phase3 with RF central locking then the black box with two plugs is the central locking ecu/immobiliser box integrated into one unit, many mistakenly call this a BSI.

box at base of B pillar I'm unsure of without a picture, may be central locking relay or side airbag related.

[Mighty306]

check the aerial hole in the roof thats right above the bsi

what bsi?    


that's the receiver for the remote central locking.

Welshpug ....if only you had £1 for every time you'd pointed out (to me included) that there isn't a BSI in the 306! 

[welshpug]

and yet you still say there is one.

[Mighty306]

Not me! I accepted your wisdom long ago when it helpfully explained why PP2000 doesn't connect to the [non-existent] BSI!

[pug306driver]

See shell fuel thread, thanks welshpete for the heads up about your 306 estate?

defo seems damp related issue, as was starting all ok when it was dried out, and temp down to 6 degrees c, but "that"morning after good start up, the windows refused to close!!!

Suspect water in drivers door loom causing/adding to problems.

No real problem at the moment as not allowed to drive at all for the next few weeks at least.

[madmadmax]

ok so have you cheked the cph/bsi and ecu coms wires for brakes and chefes?

if not get your meter out and check pin 33 and 66 on the ecu sokest conect to pin 3 and i think 6 on the yellow

to get in to the yellow plug you remove the cabel tye and slide the flat black plate down

we seam to be chasing the same problem so i will post up whats happning to mine

but my cph is not powring on for some reson

[pug306driver]

Hi madmax, just seen your last post ( excuse the pun, i hope both of our pugs have years of trouble free motoring ahead ) .....

Its raining a lot again and she is really misbehaving, she even dead locked us in the car yesterday, but luckily the drivers door window was open so i could reach the outside door lock, thanking god i did not drop the keys !!

Some days she is fine, locks and then deadlocks on the fob second press, opening and starting all fine, but others its clunk clunk as she locks then unlocks herself and repeats...........

I still think water is getting inside the drivers ( and probably passengers side as well but not the back as the back door looms do not have the "cone" connection moulded block ) door , inside the door, loom, at the clearish domed connection block. I can see some corrosion/verdigree inside the dome........

I do not have time at the moment to attend to it so am stuck for a while.......bloody mondeo problems......

not sure what the cph is ?

not sure what the yellow plug is either. Thanks for the heads up on ecu pins 33 and 66 connected to each other and to pin 3 and 6 ??

I further suspect a problem with the drivers door loom between body and door, as when side lights are on and door is opened, the lights on alarm bleeps and seems to have a "dead spot"..........

It has been repaired prior to us owning the car but the wires to the plug are so so short,,,,,,i intend repairing the door loom using trailer 7 core cable, 3 off and colour coded etc. to replace the oe door loom, but need the time ie, this mondeo off my back.